Gear box problems

[ekjdm14]

a grand for a release bearing is taking the proverbial... If he's quoting to renew the whole clutch & DMF if fitted then that wouldn't be so unreasonable, but does the EGS even have a DMF and on what evidence does he believe the clutch/release bearing/DMF to likely all be knackered?

[van ordinaire]

AND, with the car in bits on the ramp, how did he discover the alleged clutch fault - & why?

[GiveMeABreak]

a grand for a release bearing is taking the proverbial... If he's quoting to renew the whole clutch & DMF if fitted then that wouldn't be so unreasonable, but does the EGS even have a DMF and on what evidence does he believe the clutch/release bearing/DMF to likely all be knackered?

1) For those that are interested, yes, the Piloted system does have a DMF as it is essentially a manual Gearbox and Clutch.
2) Here are the comparisons between the 6 speed manual gearbox system and the piloted system in terms of clutches (as you can see, there doesn't seem to be the same clutch release mechanism as the manual - so the release bearing on the piloted system is contained within (3) - the Clutch Slave Cylinder Stop. This can be seen on the second diagram - item (13).

Click on the pics to magnify
So on the manual, clutch fork is (5) and (2) being the clutch release bearing buffer.
On the Piloted system item (3) is the Clutch Slave Cylinder Stop

Manual and Piloted Comparison

For general interest, here is what the piloted system components consist of (externally):
Click on the pics to magnify

Piloted System Components

Key
(1) Actuator electro-hydraulics.
(2) Actuator electro-pump.
(3) High pressure hose.
(4) Reservoir return pipe.
(5) Hydraulic reservoir for piloted manual gearbox.
(6) Pressure accumulator.
(7) Actuator electro-pump unit electric motor.
(8) Piloted manual gearbox ECU.
(9) Decluch piping.
(10) Gear engagement position sensor.
(11) Gear selection position sensor.
(12) Hydraulic piping union.
(13) Declutch bearing.
(14) Travel sensor.
(15) Electrical connector.

As for the replacement of the Clutch Slave Cylinder Stop unit (containing the bearing), that retails at £141.96 inc. VAT from Citroen.

[ekjdm14]

Ahh I can understand how the tech could come to that conclusion now, based on the incorrect fluid actually having caused damage to the hydraulic system, since it'd presumably also do the same to what is effectively a concentric slave cylinder/release bearing assembly...

Still £1k is stupidly expensive for swapping a slave/release bearing that are basically a service item on similar manual clutch setups. (edit- just seen the price posted above, £140-odd reflects what I'd maybe expect for a recent model at a main stealer price) Also suggests to me that the "damage" being talked of is to do with the oil doing some mischief to the internal seals of components in which case I still don't know if the oil could swell seals in the timescale we're talking about but it *could* possibly be a pre-emptive diagnosis based on the knowledge/belief that the seals will fail in short order some time in the future.

Even so, assuming all the seals are knackered in the slave & actuators (how long before they condemn the pump too???) surely the seals can be replaced by someone so inclined... I'd suggest if that's possible, a bill in the region of £500 or so would be closer to the mark. So again, I have to wonder if anyone does indeed repair these things & if not why not (and has anyone got dead components they would donate so I can have a look-see if anything can be serviced about them!)

[Paul-R]

... yes, the Piloted system does have a DMF ...

That's interesting as the drawing of the clutch plate on the piloted system seems to show the bulges for cush springs. Now I know you shouldn't believe everything in a drawing but is this possible? A DMF plus "conventional" clutch plate? Or not a DMF after all?

[GiveMeABreak]

There are 2 different DMFs - slightly different design from the diagrams
The one for my 2.0 manual requires the 8 bolts replacing, whereas the Piloted one does not.

2.0 HDi DMF 6 Speed Manual Gearbox

1.6 DMF for Piloted Gearbox

[RichardW]

As noted the EGS release bearing / hydraulics is an all in one unit inside the bell housing - it is operated by the EGS electronics / actuator on the outside so uses the same oil. Unfortunately, replacing it requires removing the gearbox - which if you ask Citroen is a 9.5 hour job involving removing the engine and gearbox complete from below. That price may include replacement of the clutch, but it won't include the DMF - Citroen want over £500 for one of those.....

It needs to be out of there and down to someone who knows what they are looking at!

[white exec]

One more for the no-no list, for me at least.

[GiveMeABreak]

Agreed - full auto or manual for me.

I must admit though, I loved my C-Matic - semi automatic transmission on my '78 CX Prestige - never had an issue in the many years of use, unfortunately the body just rusted off the chassis - but apart from a split fuel line once (fuel squirting out the back as I zoomed away up a hill in London with people waving madly at me), no issues at all mechanically. I did smoke cigarettes back then all those years ago, and could so easily have turned into the Bat Mobile if one of those buts had accidentally flew out...

[van ordinaire]

I was told by someone who knows about these things that with £400 being the going rate for a clutch in yer average family hatch that a lot of those he breaks just need clutches. So, far from being the nice little earner for the trade (like alternators & starters, with the advent of stop-start technology) replacing DMF's, as a matterof course, when doing the clutch just isn't going to happen - although I understand that conversions are already available.

[GiveMeABreak]

I don't quite get how you think stop start tech relates to less DMF changes, or am I missing something? It's still a manual gear box, clutch & DMF and the DMF will wear just the same. The Stop Start tech is just a way for manufacturers to inflate the economy figures, as for half the city driving in the tests, the car is stopped! Doesn't really save that much fuel in the real world, but is likely to increase wear on engine, battery and starting components.

[Paul-R]

I don't think VO is saying start/stop relates to DMFs but to alternators and starter motors. At least, that's the way I read it.

[GiveMeABreak]

Righto, there's video here of a rather opinionated Aussie 'journalist' on the great con of Start Stop tech:

[elma]

Sounds like Citroën dealer doing the usual con to me, please excuse the cynicism.
Testing oil properly costs about £100 and takes a week unless you want to pay more. I know because I used to do it. I cannot believe they have done so.
If the spec on yours meets the spec given then what they are saying sounds like elaboration to me.

I second getting the car to an independent. I think it's likely that it just needed a bleed. I wouldn't put it past a dealer to do said bleed, find it it working and then start telling you it needs actuators. They can take over £2k from you for just leaving the car in a corner for a week now. Plus they'll have a nice new set of actuators for the bosses car for free.

Of course I could be wrong but I trust car dealers less than the rabid pitbulls and it's through personal experience I've become like this.

I may, in your position, pay for an independent inspection at Citroëns workshop. Id instruct yhe engineer to check for a fault, diagnose it if present snd reccommend the correct repair procedure. I'd tell Citroën this is to gather evidence for the legal case to recover the repair bill which will ensure they cooperate as they want the cash. Do not tell them it's to check what they have told you if you go down this route, they are likely to tamper and make the engineers job impossible if they are pulling a fast one.

[GiveMeABreak]

It's likely that they could refuse that as the car is taking up space in the workshop though James - they could get awkward and say fine, but you'll need to have it taken elsewhere to be inspected. The only times I've seen them have a car stuck on the lift was when mine was in for steering rack replacement under warranty.

They were waiting for the warranty company engineer / inspector to approve repairs during the next 2 days -but guess what was on the ramp next to mine - another X7 tourer in for the same job and that had been waiting for approval for 2 weeks - but couldn't be moved! They were not happy, but as they were going to be doing the work they had no choice!