Gear box problems

[white exec]

If not already done, a damning (but factual) Comment/Review placed on Ebay would be a very good idea.

[RichardW]

I wouldn't get too carried away - I think it's much more likely the actuator, or part of it, was damaged by the low oil level. The vendor is pretty adamant it's the right oil, and it's got the Citroen spec on it. There are various bits to the actuator, so it ought to be possible to rebuild it.

This was kind of what happened to my mate's C4 Pic - once the EGS actuator had been disturbed, and despite a replacement pump and valve block unit it would still not let him program the grid. They do seem to be a weak point!

[white exec]

So was it or wasn't it an incorrect spec of oil?

[van ordinaire]

Shades of my putting the wrong multigrade hypoid in the gearbox, therby ending the world as we know it - or so I was warned. Fortunately, in my case, no harm was done - or so it seems, but a valuable lesson was learned.

None of that is any consolation to you, I realise, but the whole sorry story should soon be history, from which - hopefully - others will have learned.

[Hell Razor5543]

I wonder if the supplier is a victim of an unscrupulous supplier themselves? If they obtained the oil in good faith (and were told it met industry standards) they would certain it WAS the right oil for the purpose it was sold.

[van ordinaire]

Now THAT is the great unaswerable questions (short of having it analysed) because the the various interested parties claim it was, or it wasn't, according to their interests.pa=

In a sense the vendor is also an innocent party, as surely, he is entitled to rely on what the manufacturer/marketer/packager claims. If the label claims it's for a certain application & meets certain specs/industry standards, why (& how) should he query or dispute that?

[Hell Razor5543]

The trick here is careful, diplomatic communications (assuming you have not upset them, and made them unwilling to listen to you). You factually explain what the findings of Citroen are (no accusations, just a clear and informative report). You then say something like "Is it possible that WE are the victim of a rogue batch of oil?". By phrasing it this way you not only are NOT apportioning blame to them, but that both you and they are the victim of somebody else. With luck (and careful language) you will get them onside with you, hopefully working towards an acceptable solution.

[xantia_v6]

But look at it from the other side, what evidence does the Citroen dealer have? I am sure that they have not analysed the oil, other than determining that they did not supply it.

[411514]

It does seem a little unfair to blame the oil seller based on very little evidence.

From what you have said it appears far more likely that any damage resulted from the low oil level, which itself was presumably caused by a broken part. It seems near impossible that driving the car for the short period of time mentioned with the non-Cit oil will have caused any damage.

I imagine that the reason it has been proposed you write to the oil seller is seeking compensation, with, I guess, the threat being to take legal action in its absence. But, shoe on the other foot, I'm sure you would not be best pleased if say Citroen were to write to you alleging, based on very little evidence, that your car has broken their equipment, and placing blame for this on you.

If I were you I would seek a second opinion on the gearbox fault from a known good independent garage, and I'm sure somewhere on this forum there will be a recommendation for a garage local to you.

[van ordinaire]

A second opinion is a little tricky, given the car is stuck on the dealer's ramp.

They do say they have tested the oil, quite what that means/entails I have no idea - but it's certainly not an analysis.

Strictly speaking, the vendors is liable but I have no knowledge of post-eBay contract law, but imagine the mechanics of such an action could be problematical.

In reality, I cannot see any realistic way forward - without the support of one of the motoring organisations &/or involvement/intervention of Trading Standards.

[ekjdm14]

Wow, would be interesting to hear from the Citroen franchise (NOT Citroen/PSA themselves as I understand this has only gone as far as the garage concerned). We really need to know exactly what damage is done to the actuators, and in what way it was caused by less than a mile of running (surely well under 50 gear changes?) with the wrong oil.

My feeling is still that the low oil level or some contaminant/pressure loss introduced by the failed pipe is a more likely cause & would be loathe to go "all guns blazing" on the supplier of the oil until I at least had some proper analysis results comparing the supplied oil to the genuine oil to know what differences there were/may be, and what effects are possible on the actuators as a result of any variations.

As mentioned, sadly it's a rock/hard place kind of situation now with the car in bits on their ramp & the oil likely disposed of into a mixed container now but I would still want to seek further confirmation/evidence from the garage that the oil spec really is the cause. And whether or not this does turn out to be the case, I would 100% want the removed actuators to be kept and handed back to me after replacement (you have every right to ask for the failed parts to be returned to you) so they could be looked at more in-depth once the car is back on the road.

I think it says something of my personality that I now want more than ever to acquire a faulty EGS equipped car to see what goes wrong and what can be done... Surely someone has/is doing this already but we haven't heard from them here yet, mores the pity really.

[411514]

And whether or not this does turn out to be the case, I would 100% want the removed actuators to be kept and handed back to me after replacement (you have every right to ask for the failed parts to be returned to you) so they could be looked at more in-depth once the car is back on the road.
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I guess a reason, if no other, for asking for return of the old actuators is that I bet they, even in an allegedly broken state, will be worth a pretty penny (if new they cost £2k). Assuming that they have been damaged by oil starvation, this will surely only need new sealing rings.

For what it is worth, and without any particular knowledge of the EGS actuators, I would be a little sceptical of Citroen's assertion that they are kaput, and thus even more cautious of throwing allegations at others. I recently acquired for a relative a Sensodrive Pug 1007, and the gear actuators on those is known to often be wrongly blamed for various issues (although I appreciate that the operation of the actuator on the 1007 is quite different to the EGS). There are stories all over the 1007 forums of dealers wrongly diagnosing faults with the actuators and owners coughing up thousands of pounds for un-needed parts that don't solve the problem.

Whilst I appreciate that it may be not be easy to move the car now it is in bits, my inclination would be to get it flat-bedded to a local good independent knowledgeable on the system, if for no other reason than their hourly rate is likely to be cheaper than the MD, and they may be able to source decent second-hand spares. There are a couple of members on here who appear knowledgeable on the EGS system, and I think they themselves run garages. I notice that you are in Doncaster - there is a member on here whose garage is Derbyshire way, might be worth considering.

[RichardW]

Lighty's place is only 50 miles away - breakdown recovery might transport it. He was well versed in Sensodrive problems, don't know how up he is on EGS, but I think likely better than the local Cit dealer who has probably never had one in bits. http://www.marklightfootltd.co.uk/

[demag]

I have experience of Citroen dealers. Basically it goes like this, car is broke due to faulty pipe. Punter topped it up with oil from eBay seller. Tell him oil was wrong spec, actuators wrecked it's gonna cost 2 grand. End of. They have the car in bits on the ramp if you want it removed to a third party it will still end up costing a grand for their time and so called effort. Legalised black mail.

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[renagade]

The forman at Citroen is now telling me that I might need a new clutch release bearing (because it as a small ball bearing inside that might be stuck ) that will be another £1000.00 on top of the 2209.55. Do fenin Citroen Doncaster think that I a meal ticket for them, anyway's if they do start that game the car will have to stay at the garage as I just don't have the money.