For the 2nd time in a month I had cause to use my recovery cover. Each time from hot after parking for 10 mins or so she has failed to start. The 1st time we put it being down to the reserve on fuel.
The symptons are that she turns over fine but will not fire. In each case I eventually run down the battery. The 2nd time this weekend they attempted to jump start me but still would not fire. They thought it was fuel related so he bled the fuel system. It then started and run perfectly. I watched what he was doing closely, he slacked one of the injectors and then turned the engine over momentarily. He then tightened it again. He said to check out possible air leak or prime pump fault.
So far only happened on hot starts but the chap said could be a coincidence.
Car has been starting fine since. I am going to book her in to my local man. Any clues as to what direction to point him in beyond what the chap said above. Never seems to start with much instant enthusiasiam from hot compared to other cars I have had with the same engine.
Engine is well maintained and done 76,000 only.
Any help and guidence greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Help please Xantia TD hot start problem
Moderator: RichardW
My car went back to garage under waranty in october due to a problem just like this, they changed the glow plugs and it was a little better but like yourself I felt it wasn't as good as it could be....
Watch the fuel lines from the filter housing whilst pumping the primer I noticed air bubbles, and a slight weep from top of fuel filter housing ( very small hardly noticable) changed fuel filter, the rubber seal had gone hard, replaced lid checking carefully that it was on square and tightened up bolt carefully a bit at a time,primed and it started instantly and has ever since.
The old filter seemed poor quality (halfords I think don't quote me) the new one from gsf just seemed more substanial around the seal, this has also cured workmates car although that filter wasnt changed in three years (yes it was yuk) may just have a coincedence.
Watch the fuel lines from the filter housing whilst pumping the primer I noticed air bubbles, and a slight weep from top of fuel filter housing ( very small hardly noticable) changed fuel filter, the rubber seal had gone hard, replaced lid checking carefully that it was on square and tightened up bolt carefully a bit at a time,primed and it started instantly and has ever since.
The old filter seemed poor quality (halfords I think don't quote me) the new one from gsf just seemed more substanial around the seal, this has also cured workmates car although that filter wasnt changed in three years (yes it was yuk) may just have a coincedence.
A warm-starting problem like this is not likeley to be glow-plug related. Since the car aparently starts from cold when the glow plug assistance is most needed.
Again, a fuel leak would not be my first choice, as it starts from cold ( after being left for a while ) aparently without a problem.
This age car is probably one with the electronic injection control, for which the ECU will need to know the temperature of the engine in order to get the timing and injection right. This is why I would look at the sensor. I may be completely wrong, but just thought I'd explain the logic for others to slate !
Again, a fuel leak would not be my first choice, as it starts from cold ( after being left for a while ) aparently without a problem.
This age car is probably one with the electronic injection control, for which the ECU will need to know the temperature of the engine in order to get the timing and injection right. This is why I would look at the sensor. I may be completely wrong, but just thought I'd explain the logic for others to slate !
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
I think you have got an immobiliser fault there, pitty the wolves have got it allready or you could have tried jump leads, even if your battery is fine.
Workmate had the very same problem on his 97 sx td, if he stopped it while he went for diesel the toad would more often than not totaly refuse to start, it did however allways start with a jump even though it turned over ok using its own battery, there was never any problem starting it from cold and no indication from the keypad's two lights that any fault existed, suggesting to me that the fault was in the very last stage of the process,
My theory is that the power transistor in the pumps onboard immobiliser electronics that switches the current for the stop solenoid got weakened when it heated up, and was unable to source the full current needed to lift the solenoid.
While the solenoid was allready lifted on the running engine the reduced current could have been enough to keep it there untill the engine was switched off, then it was curtains untill it cooled down or was given a boost from another battery.
You could have listened for the solenoids click as the last number of the keypad was keyed in, if nothing was heard on doing this in its faulted state it would strengthen the case for the fault just described, if this is the fault it will get progressively worse.
I agree with Mat that any air that could get in when you switched off would still be there in the morning and in even larger quantities, then it would refuse to start untill primed, if it was air ingress it would happen with much more regularity than this in my experience.
Dave
Workmate had the very same problem on his 97 sx td, if he stopped it while he went for diesel the toad would more often than not totaly refuse to start, it did however allways start with a jump even though it turned over ok using its own battery, there was never any problem starting it from cold and no indication from the keypad's two lights that any fault existed, suggesting to me that the fault was in the very last stage of the process,
My theory is that the power transistor in the pumps onboard immobiliser electronics that switches the current for the stop solenoid got weakened when it heated up, and was unable to source the full current needed to lift the solenoid.
While the solenoid was allready lifted on the running engine the reduced current could have been enough to keep it there untill the engine was switched off, then it was curtains untill it cooled down or was given a boost from another battery.
You could have listened for the solenoids click as the last number of the keypad was keyed in, if nothing was heard on doing this in its faulted state it would strengthen the case for the fault just described, if this is the fault it will get progressively worse.
I agree with Mat that any air that could get in when you switched off would still be there in the morning and in even larger quantities, then it would refuse to start untill primed, if it was air ingress it would happen with much more regularity than this in my experience.
Dave
Local Citroen / Peugeot specialist has now fully checked car out with very little to report. Glow plugs, fuel system ok.
Conclusion was that the battery despite passing whatever tests they do (and Quick fit 2 weeks previously) was not turning engine over fast enough.
In the absence of anything else, and after numerous hot starts at the garage, they have settled on the battery being at fault. With a new battery the engine turns over appreciably faster.
The garage explained that as one has more compression on a cold start than a hot start (?) this is the likely problem.
Car is back in use with plenty of hotstarts under it's belt. I am told cranking speed is all important on a diesel engine?
Will keep the board informed as to hoe we get on.
Conclusion was that the battery despite passing whatever tests they do (and Quick fit 2 weeks previously) was not turning engine over fast enough.
In the absence of anything else, and after numerous hot starts at the garage, they have settled on the battery being at fault. With a new battery the engine turns over appreciably faster.
The garage explained that as one has more compression on a cold start than a hot start (?) this is the likely problem.
Car is back in use with plenty of hotstarts under it's belt. I am told cranking speed is all important on a diesel engine?
Will keep the board informed as to hoe we get on.
About 18 months back I had a similar problem on my 2.1 XM TD with Bosch pump and filter. It would be a pig to start hot or cold and would run for only a minute or so. After testing all fuel pipes it turned out to be a leaking fuel filter/primer plunger that was allowing air to enter the fuel lines. I fitted a Bosch filter, filter/pump housing and solved the problem. The car has been fine ever since and I have found out that some cheap after market filters and housings can suffer perforated rubber diaphrams in the primer plunger and /or porous castings.
Seemingly all my starting problems were down to the battery, notwithstanding it passing certain tests at the garage. The replacement battery turns the engine over appreciably faster. Numerous hot and cold starts done this week with no problems. Strange how with the old battery, it would start the car from cold but not hot? The garage said you have more compression with a cold engine. I thought more compression made it more difficult to turn over but easier to start all things being equal.
Anyway happy to have the Xantia running again.
Anyway happy to have the Xantia running again.
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
Compression readings are nearly allways lower cold than when hot for two reasons, one, the pistons and their rings expand with heat to the proper operating tollerance, meaning less air escapes as it is compressed, but the main reason is oil drag, cold oil puts up more resistance to moving parts than hot oil so it slows the cranking speed down.
The more compression a diesel engine has, the more difficult it will be for the starter to swing over, but the better the compression the easier it is to start because the the air will get hotter if there is more of it to compress into the same space, cranking speed is a critical factor but not so much when the engine is good, if one of these engines needs to be cranked fast to get it going then perhaps all is not well.
My xantia engine turns over slower than any I've previousely owned and during the recent cold spell sounded like a car with a flat battery, yet with thick ice on the windows it burst into life after only a couple of strokes and didn't miss a beat, that chuffs me some what because it tells me the engine is in very good shape, just run in at 114k[:D]
The ZX I have cranks much faster than the xantia but doesn't start any easier than it when hot, (though it starts just as easey when cold) both taking some five or six strokes, so well in line with most Bosch equiped td's.
Dave
The more compression a diesel engine has, the more difficult it will be for the starter to swing over, but the better the compression the easier it is to start because the the air will get hotter if there is more of it to compress into the same space, cranking speed is a critical factor but not so much when the engine is good, if one of these engines needs to be cranked fast to get it going then perhaps all is not well.
My xantia engine turns over slower than any I've previousely owned and during the recent cold spell sounded like a car with a flat battery, yet with thick ice on the windows it burst into life after only a couple of strokes and didn't miss a beat, that chuffs me some what because it tells me the engine is in very good shape, just run in at 114k[:D]
The ZX I have cranks much faster than the xantia but doesn't start any easier than it when hot, (though it starts just as easey when cold) both taking some five or six strokes, so well in line with most Bosch equiped td's.
Dave