Help please. Xantia hdi 110 timing belt problem

[Tomas]

Hi guys,

Here is my story short. Arrived to my work without problems but couldn't start my precious old lady after work. Phoned RAC. The guy took one timing belt cover bolt out and said that my timing belt is lose and moving. Towed it back home. After reading everything you have here on the timing belt problems I decided to investigate myself and proceeded with the job. Here are the steps I followed:

1. Took the timing belt covers off and found that my belt was missing quite a few teeth in crankshaft area.
2. Took the camshaft cover off and found that one rocker arm is broken.
3. Replaced that rocker arm with new one.
4. Got the starter off.
5. Timed the flywheel.
6. Put the camshaft back in and timed it with a drill bit through one of three holes in a camshaft sprocket (wasn't sure if it is the right one but because the camshaft sat in nicely I assumed that it must be the one. Plus that one looks differently from other two. Normal hole with some kind like two teeth fork on the top. Don't know how to add picture)
7. Got my timing belt on.
8. Tried to turn the engine twice as advised in Haynes book but managed only (let's say) half a way.

Does it mean that my valves are bent? I've red here that some people got away with timing belt snapping at the speeds like 40 and 70, and in my case, it just slipped when trying to start the car. I doubt the starter has enough power to tear the engine apart. I don't know though. Maybe it slipped a teeth or two before me never noticing?

Anyway... I tried to time camshaft through another hole in a sprocket but the camshaft never sat in well. Was kind of elevated at the sprocket end. I thought it will sit in with tightening (that camshaft and rocker arm covering bit on an engine head). But I just broke another rocker arm when tightening. I assume first attempt was timed right. Never tried the third hole. Shame I can't figure out how to add a picture here. Have a picture of a camshaft sprocket. The hole I used for timing on my first attempt looks like a two teeth fork on the top of the hole. 180 degrees of it is some circle with the number 6 or 9. Hope it helps.

I love this car so much. T reg exclusive and absolutely everything is working. Very reliable piece of machinery. My heart is breaking apart of the thought that I'll possibly have to scrap it. And it has only 100 000 miles on a clock. The best car I ever had. I liked BX a lot too.

Thanks for reading all this and sorry for my poor English.

Regards

[RichardW]

Welcome along!

Sorry to hear of your problems.... Generally accepted that these don't bend valves, just break the rockers, so you are on right track. When you tightened the cam down and broke a rocker, presume the crank was at timing position? The timing point you used for the cam sounds like the right one - I recall it as being a fork type rather than a hole. It should be at about 7 o'clock when the pin is inserted. If you rock the crank back 1/4 turn from the timing position, can you then rotate the cam and get all the valves to press down?

To load up pictures, you need to put them on an external host, then link to them on here.

[Tomas]

Thanks for quick reply Richard.
Now I'm a bit confused when you asked me about if my crank was timed. Isn't the same thing as the flywheel, the timing hole of which is kind of behind the starter. If it the same thing when yes the crank was timed. Now that hole on a camshaft sprocket is actually hole. Like 'o' but it has kind of double tether fork on the top of it. Like a top another sprocket layer. It's like to lay 'u' on the top of 'o'. 'O' will be the lier closer to engine. There is another 'o' hole on that sprocket (without 'u' on the top of it) and there is 'u' type hole (if you can call it hole at all). All three of them alies well with the timing hole in the engine block.

I'll have to try that 1/4 rotation back thing and I'll let you know. Not sure if I'll be able to do it today. Waiting for new rocker arms. I assume 'pressed down valves' equals camshaft laying nicely in its place?

Thanks

[wurlycorner]

Welcome Tomas, sorry to hear of your troubles.

Any update?

As for having to scrap the car you love, if your engine does turn out to be completely knackered... I wouldn't say it needs to be that drastic - plenty of used replacement engines available out there, so you could just do an engine swap (that engine also fitted to the C5 ).

[wheeler]

Check that the woodruff key on the cam pulley has no sheared, this can happen when the belt breaks or jumps.
Can catch you out as the pegs line up ok but the camshaft is out.
Never seen this engine bend a valve yet.

[Tomas]

Thanks for advice. The woodruff key is OK. Can it have anything to do me turning engine anti-clockwise? The camshaft was out when i did that.

Thanks

[Gibbo2286]

Info I posted earlier on another thread re camshaft timing, the basics:

You've got the cam cover off, take the belt off and turn the camshaft round until the cams on the number 1 or number 4 cylinder are 'on the rock' i.e. the exhaust is just closing and the inlet just opening, that way none of the valves will be in the way of the pistons coming to tdc so the crankshaft should do a complete turn without any clunks, if it does it's just a matter of getting the locking pins in the correct holes and fitting the belt properly

[Tomas]

Hi Gibbo,

Can you comment a bit more on that rotation of camshaft? Sorry but I'm not getting that. How it can be possible to rotate camshaft not rotating cranckshaft at the same time? Isn't that the whole point of the timing? Do you mean by 'cam cover' that part which holds camshaft in place? I assume that only by taking that thing off, I would be able manipulate camshaft separately from the crankshaft? Maybe I'm wrong because its my first attempt sorting the engine. And that TDC thing. How do I know that my pistons are there? Are they in that position when I simply time the flywheel?

Sorry for so many question but I'm not getting it.

Thanks

[jgra1]

hi tomas. .in spent an hour today fitting a cambelt to an hdi engine .. in presume your cam sprocket has the 3 bolts plus a central bolt ?
john

[Tomas]

Yes jgra1. 3 bolts plus central bolt.

[jgra1]

ok.. will run through what I did today but may have to wait for tomorrow

[Tomas]

Thanks a lot. I can wait till tomorrow for sure.

[Gibbo2286]

Hi Gibbo,

Can you comment a bit more on that rotation of camshaft? Sorry but I'm not getting that. How it can be possible to rotate camshaft not rotating cranckshaft at the same time? Isn't that the whole point of the timing? Do you mean by 'cam cover' that part which holds camshaft in place? I assume that only by taking that thing off, I would be able manipulate camshaft separately from the crankshaft? Maybe I'm wrong because its my first attempt sorting the engine. And that TDC thing. How do I know that my pistons are there? Are they in that position when I simply time the flywheel?

Sorry for so many question but I'm not getting it.

Thanks

With the belt off the camshaft and crankshaft are free to rotate independently so you set the camshaft as I described first, that should mean that the timing pin holes in the cam wheel and block are lined up or very near lined up so you know you are using the correct holes, the pistons are at tdc when the flywheel timing pin is in place,

[Tomas]

Hi Gibbo,

Seriously? Maybe I'm stupid but that your 'with the belt off the camshaft and crankshaft are free to rotate independently' doesn't make sense imo. Why then engine gets damaged if timing belt snaps when driving? If they are free to rotate independently, there would be no damage ever if I understand it right.

Thanks anyway

[Hell Razor5543]

When a belt fails (especially if the engine is running at high revs) the crankshaft and camshaft get out of sync and then parts start hitting each other. I have heard of a case when a BX1.9d had the belt fail when the car was doing 70MPH, pistons then hit valves that weren't where they were meant to be at that moment, and the camshaft broke in two places while the head got distorted. This is why it is vitally important that various shafts, etc., get locked into certain positions when working on anything to do with the timing systems.