Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

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xsaras4ever
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Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello to all,

tootling along in our 1.9td van today and it jumped out of 5th gear for the first time ever, then it would not stay in.

If gave no warning about this - no noises whatsoever.

Did a bit of research and its a common problem on these, the camper-van people have loads of complaints about it.

Anyway, started into the job, took off the cover on the outside of the box to reveal the 5th gear.

Unfortunately we lost one of the 6.47mm ball bearings in the process - impossible to find it. Anyone know if its common to another PSA box, or easily purchased ?

We have undone the 13mm nut on the gold-coloured gear selector, but the selector will not come off - not easily anyway.

As we know that these are made of chocolate, we are asking advice from anyone who can help regarding safe removal of this part.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by RichardW »

Jim's the man: Jim's gearbox tutorial
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Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by RichardW »

And the balls look like they are still available from Citroen - only 56p - but you might have to buy a bag of 10!
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xsaras4ever
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Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by xsaras4ever »

Thanks RichardW, thats a great gearbox guide.

Our van will apparently need a puller to get the selector off, as it is a little bit different from the car gearbox , its beefier.

And also thanks for the info about the bearings.

The parts for the gearbox are pricey though !!!
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
xsaras4ever
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Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello again,

we made a puller and got the selector off.

The only part worn is part "I" in the diagram, which sits between part 11 and "J".

No part number for it though.

Any ideas ?

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Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by Paul-R »

I, J, K, 17, 18 & 19 are part of item 14 (2388 19). Looks like that's the only way to get item I from Citroen. I'm a bit worried by the NFP though. Does this mean no longer available?
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xsaras4ever
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Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello again,

NFP is "Ne Fournissons Plus" , so yes , no longer supplied.

Maybe some gearbox specialiists will have the part we require.

An individual part number would have been handy.

Our gearbox terminology is not great - is that part called a "baulk ring" ?
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
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JCB 3cx
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Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by Paul-R »

I would call the whole item the synchronising hub assembly and item I the outer sliding ring or collar. It's difficult to be sure from the drawing but item K looks as though it could be a baulk ring.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson​
xsaras4ever
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Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello to all again.

It strikes us that the diagram is incorrect.

Surely part "K" should sit between "I" and "J" , as there is nothing to hold it in place if it is mounted as per the diagram ?

Thanks to all
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Fiat 500 (2009)
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Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by CitroJim »

I believe the diagram is correct insomuch as it's is an exploded diagram for parts reference only and not an accurate representation of the assembly.

In reality, Items 10 (pinion) and 22 (end nut) sit beyond Item K and 20 and therefore Item K is secured by virtue of the fact it rests against Item 10.. Compare with the other synchros...

Remember 5th gear pinion and synchro are outside the main gearbox casing under the tin cover so those items all sit beyond the bearing retainer Item M...

Hope that clarifies. Generally those parts diagrams are not good guides to the precise assembly of the item in question...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by xsaras4ever »

Hello again to all and thank you for the help.


Thank you Jim for the info as we were not aware that the diagram were only for parts reference. Good advice, gratefully received.


However, we are still unsure - its only our ignorance of gearboxes probably.

Item 10 (the cog on the end of the primary drive) is roughly the same thickness as item 11 - and they mesh together.

All other parts on the 5th gear part of the secondary shaft run outside of contact with item 10.

When we laid the parts out, we couldn't see what would keep K from spinning outwards and drop off the end of the secondary shaft. Well , it wouldn't completely drop off as there is a little dowel on the cover that goes into the secondary shaft.

Also, we couldn't see what purpose K would serve in its position in the diagram.

Its probably us just being thick - and also wishing that we had taken some photos on dis-assembly.
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Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
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Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by CitroJim »

If push really comes to shove I still have an ML5 'box here I could pop the tin cover off and take a few pictures...

Unfortunately time is short as I'm barely home at the moment so earliest would be late Sunday or Monday...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
xsaras4ever
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Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by xsaras4ever »

That would be super Jim , but no pressure as we don't need to use the van for a week or so.

Its on a van so its an ML5T box, big heavy item - bigger than the stuff we normally do on the Xsaras and ZX. Same mountings onto the block though. The metal cover over the 5th gear is bolted on with 13mm, not 12mm as on the cars - thing is - we dont want you to do the work for nothing.

Is that different from the ML5 ?
Jumper 2.5d
406 Phase 2 Estate, Hdi
Fiat 500 (2009)
1997 Audi A3 tdi
Peugeot 205 td
Fordson Major Tractor
Nuffield 460 tractor
JCB 3cx
xsaras4ever
(Donor 2016)
Posts: 391
Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 13:43
Location: Bretagne,France
My Cars: Peugeot 205 TD
Citroen Jumper 2.5D
Peugeot 406 Estate 2.0 Hdi
Citroen Saxo Ph2 1.1
Audi A3 1.9D
Pembleton 3 Wheeler
1959 Kelsey GT
1957 Fordson Power Major Tractor
1964 Nuffield 4/60 Tractor
1967 Nuffield 10/60 Tractor
1963 Allis Chalmers ED40 Tractor
1984 JCB 3CX
x 39

Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by xsaras4ever »

Just found this on the French Citroen Forum.

Whaddya reckon ??


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Peugeot 205 td
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JCB 3cx
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CitroJim
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Re: Replacing 5th gear - removing selector

Post by CitroJim »

Sorry, I did mean ML5T.. Mine is from a V6 and also big and heavy!!!!
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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