Xantia cambelt HELP !!!!!!!!

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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Shane -
I did a write up changing cambelts without the need for any reference marks or lock pins - ensuring new belt is fitted exactly as old belt :
Replacing cambelt
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Post by RichardW »

Shane,
I had a look in the BOL last night, and noted 2 things:
1. It says that hole size might vary with auxiliaries fitted - might this also extend to the location of the hole / relative position to the crankshaft woodruff key?
2. The hole appears to be in the outer ring of the pulley - is there a possibility that the pulley has 'slipped' and the two halves are no longer in the intended alignment?
So - has the pulley been changed at some time for one off another motor that uses different indexing (you wouldn't check that, just pull it off and stick the new one on), or is the pulley disintegrating, and the outer ring has slipped?
ALMOST makes me glad the diesels use a timing hole in the flywheel you have to grope around behind the starter motor for....!
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Post by DoubleChevron »

Hi Guys,
well I don't bloody believe it....
I just got No 1 at TDC, marked both pulleys with both a paint texta in 3 places on both the pulley and the belts.
Removed the (unbeleivably loose) belt. Grabbed the new belt, and marked the same marks on the new belt (counting and recounting the teeth about 5times, the markings are IDENTICAL).
I then cursed and screamed abuse at it for about 1/2hour as I couldn't get the new belt on. I ended up removing the tensioner to get the belt on, then couldn't get the tensioner back on (gggrrrr). Finally I got the new belt on (the problem being with the design of the tensioner it doesn't allow you to back it off enough) and lined up exactly with the marks on the pulley and belt. Tensioned the belt, rolled the motor over for a while with the starter then started the car.
It ran like a dog, obviously the cam timing is out. So I thought "Stuff it" and pulled the belt off, moved the pulleys around to put the pins through the holes.... The camshaft pin wouldn't go through hole. The holes can't line up, never bloody did .... I don't believe it ... How the bloody hell do I line the belt up now ???
I think I know why the bloody belt was so loose, by tensioning it I've pulled the cam timing way out :-( I think I need to move the camshaft pulley 1 tooth clockwise I think ?
we'll see what happens, any suggestions?
why the hell would they make a motor where the datum points are wrong, and can never possibly line up ??
seeya,
Shane L.
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Post by David W »

Shane,
This is one of those very frustrating problems where it would be so much easier to be leaning on the wing looking with you! Have you a digital camera to post some pictures of the pulleys somewhere so we can see?
Are you saying now that you have the belt off and are moving the pulleys separately (just a fraction at a time and gently!!) that the crank timing pin will insert but the camshaft one won't. What is stopping the cam pin then. Is the hole in the head too small? Is the hole in the head on a different radius to the one in the camwheel.
Either you've done something daft that just isn't obvious or there is a unusual problem with the cam/camwheel....did someone above say perhaps the camwheel is from a different car. It seems so unlikely though, this basic engine design runs through the 1.6/1.8/2.0 BX/ZX/Xantia with the same timing procedure for all.
The timing belt is quite tight to slip off the tensioner and pulleys. You need to ease it forward a bit from each pulley in turn...even with the tensioner right back. If you were trying to get it off with any slack in the belt between the crank/cam pulley on the driving side...then it would have been difficult to slip from the tensioner.
David
DoubleChevron
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Post by DoubleChevron »

Hi David,
the hole in the camshaft pulley is a different radious to the hole in the head ... both the cam pulley and crank pulley appear to be ok, and have woodruff key.
I've got some photos I'll post in the next hour [:)]
seeya,
Shane L.
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JohnW
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Post by JohnW »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DoubleChevron</i>

Hi David,
the hole in the camshaft pulley is a different radious to the hole in the head ... both the cam pulley and crank pulley appear to be ok, and have woodruff key.
I've got some photos I'll post in the next hour [:)]
seeya,
Shane L.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Shane,
No doubt you've gone to bed in despair.... Not so late in Perth.
I'm really impressed by your composure. Still have the coordination to deal with the keyboard! Must be a shortage of Coopers Ale in Ballarat!
Seriously, I'm fascinated and look forward to the solution - not as much as you I'm sure...
Not the time to ask if you've seem my plea for advice on spheres on Aussiefrogs?
Best of luck,
JohnW
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Post by DoubleChevron »

Well Guys,
I want you to all line up in a big line and get your steel capped boots on ready to give my arse a good kicking.
The reason I couldn't get the cam belt timing right ?? Well I just went out there and pulled it off yet again, re-counted the markings, lined the old belt up against the new. Fitted the belt wound the motor foward and backwards a few turns. The marks all still lined up...
Rolled the motor over with the key for a bit, then entered the code to start the car .... It instantly kicks to life, lumpy as hell.... I cracked them, there's no way it can be wrong ... It just CAN NOT be out. So I decided it sounded like the motor sounded like it was running way to rich (like a carby motor with the choke full on).
I traced every pipe I could find from the air flow meter, and finally found a very insignifigant little hose (even smaller than the hose that feeds your windscreen washers) hanging down the back of the motor hooked to nothing. I searched around and couldn't find anything it could plug to. Decided it must be from the camshaft area somewhere as that's what I've most recently touched .... Search around ... Nothing ... Felt around ... There it is on the bottom of an electric item mounted next to the camshaft cover (can't be seen, only felt) plugged the line back in and the motor instantly started and ran perfectly .... How stupid can I be ... You need to look at the big picture when running into confusing problems like this, not just the one item you've decided it MUST be !!
seeya,
Shane L.
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Post by wheeler »

that will probably be the MAP sensor pipe that came off then ??
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Post by David W »

Shane,
Do you mean that after another go at lining up the belt the marks you made and the makers marks/pins all lined up after all....or did you decide to leave it with your marks OK but the pins still not fitting??
David
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Post by Nige »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DoubleChevron</i>

Well Guys,
I want you to all line up in a big line and get your steel capped boots on ready to give my arse a good kicking.
The reason I couldn't get the cam belt timing right ?? Well I just went out there and pulled it off yet again, re-counted the markings, lined the old belt up against the new. Fitted the belt wound the motor foward and backwards a few turns. The marks all still lined up...
Rolled the motor over with the key for a bit, then entered the code to start the car .... It instantly kicks to life, lumpy as hell.... I cracked them, there's no way it can be wrong ... It just CAN NOT be out. So I decided it sounded like the motor sounded like it was running way to rich (like a carby motor with the choke full on).
I traced every pipe I could find from the air flow meter, and finally found a very insignifigant little hose (even smaller than the hose that feeds your windscreen washers) hanging down the back of the motor hooked to nothing. I searched around and couldn't find anything it could plug to. Decided it must be from the camshaft area somewhere as that's what I've most recently touched .... Search around ... Nothing ... Felt around ... There it is on the bottom of an electric item mounted next to the camshaft cover (can't be seen, only felt) plugged the line back in and the motor instantly started and ran perfectly .... How stupid can I be ... You need to look at the big picture when running into confusing problems like this, not just the one item you've decided it MUST be !!
seeya,
Shane L.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
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Post by Nige »

Hi, advice from a Pommie if you are willing to accept it...
take cam cover off, rotate cam to get both cam lobes for #1 cylinder pointing equally away from the valves so that the base circle of both those lobes are against the valves, mark head /pulley with paint etc, put a pencil or similar in #1 spark plug hole so you can set #1 piston at the top of its travel, mark crank pulley/ block etc. with paint.
Put the belt on then rotate the engine 4 full revolutions BY HAND not on the starter (you can 'feel' contact if you put a socket/ratchet on the crank pulley, starter will just bend a valve for you).
If marks slill line up after 4 full revolutions you can consider it timed up properly.
Hope this helps
Nige
(Might be a Pom but I'm too lazy to winge)
DoubleChevron
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Post by DoubleChevron »

Hi Guys,
I used the points that I'd marked on the pulleys and the belt. Unfortunatly the camshaft sprockets timing hole won't line up, never would have lined up, and will never line up [:(!] It was obviously wrong from the factory !!!!
I've got some photo's that I'll post. I still haven't found time to put the car back together yet. I didn't take any notice of how the accessories belt was fitted and I tried to fit it up last night to find it appeared to be 30cm to long !!!! Man it must take an excutiatingly painful route around those pulleys to use up all that belt !!!! I'll sort it out tonight when I finally have some time.
seeya,
Shane L.
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Post by wilsonkrg »

Gents, This is a post I put up on an Aussie board the Shane had also posted on. I hope this clears up some of the mystery. I think the crank pulleys cope a fair belting in Aussie because we run the aircon almost all the time especially when it gets bloo#y hot outside and it almost melted rubber coupling must slip a bit every time the compressor clicks in.
If you look back at my earlier posts, I made the comment that the crankshaft pulley which carries the timing hole and drives the alternator etc can slip internally on its rubber damper resulting in the timing hole being anywhere but the right place. I found this exact problem on my 2.0l 16 valve and my local cit mechanic confirmed that it is quite a common occurrance. My timing hole was about 160 degrees out of place!
The two ways around this are to either use the woodruff key/dot on the crank cambelt sprocket as the marker for the crankshaft or to mark the existing belt and sprockets, transfer the marks from the old to the new belt and refit to the same position. If you take the axis of the cylinder bores as 12 o'clock, the correct place for the woodruff key is at 9 o'clock and the camsprocket dot is just past 3 o'clock. Shane, was your woodruff key in this position when you had the camshaft sprocket locked in place?
When I did my 16 valve, I used both methods. I locked the cam sprockets, took off the crank accessories pulley, checked the key and dot positions, marked the existing 3 belt and sprocket positions, transferred the marks to the new belt and then refitted into the same position.
To tension the belt, I rotated the engine several turns in its normal direction, made sure the front belt run was tight, and then set the tensioner so the back run was about the same tightness as the front one - just like a BX 8 valve does with its spring loaded tensioner system.
Hope this helps those yet to tackle this challenge.
I have some pics I can scan and post it anyone wants to see them.
DoubleChevron
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Post by DoubleChevron »

Yeah,
that is possible, however as I stated on the Aussie Citroen board, the CAMSHAFT is the one that won't line up [:D] Will NOT line up and never did line up. It is possible that the crankshaft has moved (I'll mark a line across the rubber and see if it changes). However this has no effect on the camshaft which has the hole drilled at a different radious between the head and pulley. I can not line up, even if you remove the belt and rotate the camshaft with a spanner.
seeya,
Shane L.
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