Sorry to start another Xantia suspension thread, but I'm not sure the symptoms I've got match the other threads I've read.
I've just acquired the in-laws 97 Xantia 1.9TD estate. This has 40K miles on the clock and has been treated well and serviced regularly. It had spent a couple of weeks sitting around before I drove it. Aparently the fluid level had been recently checked and was OK. I drove it home ~140 miles and thought it was a bit bouncy and seemed to pitch a bit, but knowing no better I just put it down to a 'true' Citroen's ride (as opposed to my familar ZX). Anyway due to tax and insurance reasons it spent a further 3 weeks sitting in my driveway.
Having read various threads about Citaerobics I thought it might be worth a try. This is where experience may help as I don't know what is normal for a Xantia and what is not.
First drop to low setting resulted in a couple of flashes of the STOP light and the low pressure/level light. So I checked the fluid level which was low and needed ~750ml to put right. No visible pools of LHM underneath. Not good I thought, but continued with Citaerobics. Here's what happens from low. Set lever to highest setting, ~5 sec later STOP light & level light come on and stay on for ~40-50sec. Then go out and ~5 sec later car rises fairly evenly. From high. Set lever to low setting, front sinks almost immediately (down in 5-10sec), back slowly sinks taking ~50sec. This is reproducible. On starting up the STOP & level light go out within 5-10sec and I've noticed that once it dropped a bit on starting and then rose to normal.
From reading the other threads I'm guessing that one or both of the accumulator spheres need replacing (I'm assuming it has 2, not having ventured under it in the current weather). Ideally I intend to replace the LHM at the same time, but that is subject to being able to loosen the brake bleed nipples and may have to wait until warmer weather. I guess the spheres are more urgent. I'm assuming that changing the accumulators will not introduce air into the brakes.
Is this a fair assessment or is it something else?
The multitude of Xantia posts is slightly off putting, but I guess its better to be forwarned as to future problems and be able to draw on the invaluable advice found here. Many thanks in advance.
Cheers
Duncan
Xantia newbie suspension query
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Homer
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Just to be sure: When you checked the LHM level you had the suspension at it's highest setting?
It will have one accumulator sphere atthe front of the engine. It will also have an antisink sphere under the back in front of (i.e toward the front of the car from) the spare wheel.
It sounds like both of these may need replacing. The dropping after starting is a symptom of the antisink being faulty. The real test for the accumulator is to let the engine idle then see how fast the pressure regulator clicks after the suspension has settled out.
Changing spheres won't get air in the brake system. You can change the fluid without bleeding the brakes although it is best practice to bleed them.
The bouncy pitching ride is more likely to be the front spheres (could be rears as well but fronts usually go first), these are mounted on top of each suspension turret, either side of the engine bay. Very easy to replace providing you have a decent chain wrench or the special tool. To test them bounce the front corners of the car with the engine running. You should have some bounce (similar to a softly sprung conventional car), rock solid means the membrane has ruptured.
As it's an estate the boot will leak - take off the carpeted lining on the hatch to see why. And you aught to check the front door hinges are secure, some were not welded on properly, although I would have thought that fault would have come to light by now.
It will have one accumulator sphere atthe front of the engine. It will also have an antisink sphere under the back in front of (i.e toward the front of the car from) the spare wheel.
It sounds like both of these may need replacing. The dropping after starting is a symptom of the antisink being faulty. The real test for the accumulator is to let the engine idle then see how fast the pressure regulator clicks after the suspension has settled out.
Changing spheres won't get air in the brake system. You can change the fluid without bleeding the brakes although it is best practice to bleed them.
The bouncy pitching ride is more likely to be the front spheres (could be rears as well but fronts usually go first), these are mounted on top of each suspension turret, either side of the engine bay. Very easy to replace providing you have a decent chain wrench or the special tool. To test them bounce the front corners of the car with the engine running. You should have some bounce (similar to a softly sprung conventional car), rock solid means the membrane has ruptured.
As it's an estate the boot will leak - take off the carpeted lining on the hatch to see why. And you aught to check the front door hinges are secure, some were not welded on properly, although I would have thought that fault would have come to light by now.
Xantia with anti-sink system has LHM pump of low capacity, so if you move it to the lowest position, it will need considerable time to rise again, STOP will be glowing during that, meaning low pressure in the system. This is normal.
Mine also sinks much faster on the front than on the rear, I presume this is normal too.
LHM level should be checked in the HIGHEST position.
Anyway, if the car is still on the original spheres, pressure in them is probably quite low. Try bouncing front and rear end of the car with it's own frequency and small amplitude (about 1 cm up/down). Up to 11 cycles in 10 seconds is acceptable, otherwise spheres on that axis need regassing or replacing.
If front spheres are 400 cm3, they will probably go before rear spheres, if they are 450 ccm, they will probably last longer, because those have better - multilayer membranes, like in C5.
Low pressure in accumulator sphere results in frequent ticking of the pressure regulator. More than 30 sec is acceptable. You can also try my mathematical method, described in another post today, assuming that pump capacity on the diesel models is about 1.3 ccm per engine revolution (instead of 0.9 for petrol models).
So far, there's no accurate and simple method for testing the anti-sink sphere in DIY fashion, although I'm working on it.
Mine also sinks much faster on the front than on the rear, I presume this is normal too.
LHM level should be checked in the HIGHEST position.
Anyway, if the car is still on the original spheres, pressure in them is probably quite low. Try bouncing front and rear end of the car with it's own frequency and small amplitude (about 1 cm up/down). Up to 11 cycles in 10 seconds is acceptable, otherwise spheres on that axis need regassing or replacing.
If front spheres are 400 cm3, they will probably go before rear spheres, if they are 450 ccm, they will probably last longer, because those have better - multilayer membranes, like in C5.
Low pressure in accumulator sphere results in frequent ticking of the pressure regulator. More than 30 sec is acceptable. You can also try my mathematical method, described in another post today, assuming that pump capacity on the diesel models is about 1.3 ccm per engine revolution (instead of 0.9 for petrol models).
So far, there's no accurate and simple method for testing the anti-sink sphere in DIY fashion, although I'm working on it.
Yep, checked the level at high setting.
The pressure reg clicking is hard to hear, but seems to be about every 1min20sec at normal level and every 1sec at high.
So the STOP light coming on before rising from low to high is normal?
Both the front and rear ends seem too bouncy to me, but that is very subjective. Both only bounce once or so before stopping. The back in particular seems too easy to push down.
So take home message:
Antisink probably on its way out for sure, the others may be going due to old age.
I guess I'll buy all 6 and a sphere tool and start with the easiest first (fronts?). Any tips on the others? I've read various advice on doing the rears about not letting the mounts turn etc, but nothing on the others.
Thanks as ever for the advice offered by everybody here.
Cheers
Duncan
The pressure reg clicking is hard to hear, but seems to be about every 1min20sec at normal level and every 1sec at high.
So the STOP light coming on before rising from low to high is normal?
Both the front and rear ends seem too bouncy to me, but that is very subjective. Both only bounce once or so before stopping. The back in particular seems too easy to push down.
So take home message:
Antisink probably on its way out for sure, the others may be going due to old age.
I guess I'll buy all 6 and a sphere tool and start with the easiest first (fronts?). Any tips on the others? I've read various advice on doing the rears about not letting the mounts turn etc, but nothing on the others.
Thanks as ever for the advice offered by everybody here.
Cheers
Duncan
[:D][:D]Ha HA I was just like you three months ago hence the username, I was xantia virgin and petrified of the suspension, just take your time and you will be fine, first I did a full servive then I tackeled the spheres, underbonnet ones tight but got them off with good quality filter strap, rears and accum (in front of engine) I was trying for three days to get them off with strap, but do not let this put you off, I used a very sharp chisel on them and after one sharp tap(not vey hard) they spun right off, just get everything to hand before starting. The LHM was a doddle just follow the haynes manual I finished that in about one hour, just make sure you go up and down about ten times to bleed the system, The change in the ride is amazing[:D]
Oh yeah when you are loosening the rear corner spheres have the suspension under pressure when you loosen them BUT ONLY GIVE THEM A QUARTER TURN AT MOST otherwise it will get very messy and you will have a xantia shaped head!
Oh yeah when you are loosening the rear corner spheres have the suspension under pressure when you loosen them BUT ONLY GIVE THEM A QUARTER TURN AT MOST otherwise it will get very messy and you will have a xantia shaped head!
[^]I have just this second changed the anti-sink thought you might like a tip,
Undid sphere with chisel (sounds worse than it is) didnt realise there was a hydraulic pipe going into the sphere itself you need to undo this with 9mm spanner after you have unsrewed the sphere whilst supporting the sphere (if you know what I mean)[:D]Easy job took about 20 minutes worse bit was jacking the car up GOT SOAKED
please buy genuine sphere re-gassed just arent worth the hassle
Undid sphere with chisel (sounds worse than it is) didnt realise there was a hydraulic pipe going into the sphere itself you need to undo this with 9mm spanner after you have unsrewed the sphere whilst supporting the sphere (if you know what I mean)[:D]Easy job took about 20 minutes worse bit was jacking the car up GOT SOAKED
please buy genuine sphere re-gassed just arent worth the hassle
About 'bounce test', suggested procedure is different than on conventional cars. You have to grab rear/front end of the car and start jiggling it (with small amplitude), to determine it's own frequency. Lower the pressure in spheres, higher the frequency. With new spheres it will be around 0.8-0.9 Hz, which means that time needed for 10 cycles will be between 11 and 12.5 sec. If it's above 1.1 Hz (9 sec for 10 cycles), spheres should be renewed.
[^]Get the tool if you can I have heard its excellent, GSF in birmingham didnt have one, As for the chisels I was like yourself (I have never been very good with them) and a workmate went straight through his radiator (Its a long story involving a chisel about 2 foot long) (FOOL) but after 3 days of trying it was either that or set fire to the car (only just about joking here) found a shrp chisel about 5 inches long by half inch wide, gave it the tiniest of taps and off it came I lay there gobsmacked, I thought i was hallucinating but finally I had got the b@#ger off and the sphere body was hardly marked, the idea is to shock the body, Anyway its up to you GOOD LUCK it will all be worth it the first time you ride with new squashy spheres[^]
Get the tool! I spent three half-evenings trying to attack my accumulator sphere with various types of tools before I gave up. I brought the tool and had all my front spheres changed within half an hour. It's well worth its money and doesn't slip dangerously when you're heaving full force at a stubborn sphere!
Take it from me - the sphere tool is a damn good investment! I changed the accumulator and anti-sink spheres on my Xantia a couple of weeks ago in about 2 hours - and that's only because I took time out for a brew and a sandwich! Made a big difference to the ride and brake feel too (the spheres that is - not the sandwich! [:)])
Get on to GSF - even though my local branch didn't have the tool in stock I got it via their mail order line without any hassle.
Get on to GSF - even though my local branch didn't have the tool in stock I got it via their mail order line without any hassle.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by paranoid</i>
[^]
please buy genuine sphere re-gassed just arent worth the hassle
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Would anyone care to expand on this and say why, or what their experience has been?
[^]
please buy genuine sphere re-gassed just arent worth the hassle
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Would anyone care to expand on this and say why, or what their experience has been?
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philhoward
I'm happy so far with my re-gassed spheres, and they come with a 3 year guarantee...That'll do me fine. Time will tell how they pan out, but if things start to go before the 3 years are up, then I'll get replacements. Speaking to Westroen who did them, they have repeat customers who come back 3-4 years later before the sphere 'flatness' is really noticed.
I've re-gassed my spheres myself (bought my own equipment). I have good experience with re-gassing. If it's done before the pressure is to low in the sphere, it will last for a long time. I have re-checked the pressure yearly (2 years) and it has not been a drop in pressure. By using the equipment(with a good valve), I can check/change the pressure while the spheres is mounted on the car. I just have to make sure there's no pressure on the system. Well worth the money and gives me total control of the spheres condition.
Morten
Morten
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philhoward