2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? + Whats Rattling?

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alDispatch
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2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? + Whats Rattling?

Post by alDispatch »

Hi,

First post here, hope someone can help.

I have a 2009 Citroen Dispatch HDI 2.0 120hp, 135k miles with noisey Siemens Injectors, at least that's what i'm thinking at the mo', I bought it recently and found a tiny amount of swarf in the filter, but history shows a recent HP fuel pump rebuild, so I put an inline magnetic filter to catch anything still in the system, and the rail pressure seems good, so I assume/hope it's 'historical' swarf, and guessed that could cause injector wear/noise.

The engine sounds good at idle, until around 1700rpm ish, but the noise starts at slightly lower revs when warm, it carries on all the way up (beyond 3200rpm), and generally only when the throttle is down, a dab of the throttle and the clatter follows the revs then tails off, even if higher rpm than idle, i.e. when cruising on the motorway.

Listening with a screwdriver in the ear and on the injector inlet pipes, 4 + 3 sounded significantly more clattery (metallic tapping), and no.1 was also quite loud, so I swapped out two on the right of the engine looking at it from the front bumper, assume these are also 1 + 2 in Diagbox?

It sounds pretty much the same after swapping, although I can see in diagbox different % flow corrections, but I don't know what they should be!? Assuming it was 1+2 I swapped, then 4 was the other I thought sounded noisey, but it had a very different (137%) flow correction. Is over 100% good or under 100% for an old injector? Also all four don't add up to 100% average, and 1 vs 4 is quite a high difference, especially now I've swapped 1 + 2 is that normal!? Edit* Diagbox says flow should be between 60% and 140%

My next plan was to swap out the third noisey injector (no. 1) , it's at the other end (cam end) to the two I did swap. Edit* Injectors are numbered 4,3,2,1 looking into bonnet from infront of the van

Before swapping out 2 injectors, at idle:

Image

After I swapped out injectors 1 + 2:

Image

Injector 4 still seems to have quite a high flow rate compensation, so is that one also worth swapping out, or is injector no. 1 too low compared to the others now? (it looked like no.1 had a re-build nozzle kit on it) If swapping the injectors didn't make much difference, am I barking up the wrong tree, what else could it be, hydraulic tappets, still an issue with swarf in the fuel system etc?

It still seems to pull well, with no dash fault lights, but engine does vibrate a bit idleing when cold, and I did notice a puff of smoke before when starting 1st time from cold, otherwise no smoke.
Last edited by alDispatch on 25 May 2016, 14:34, edited 4 times in total.
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector issues, Diagbox help

Post by alDispatch »

As a follow up I listened with a friend yesterday and found it hard to tell the difference between injector noiseyness, and really had to wonder how loud the HDI engines are anyway? Do they normally have quite a loud tapping sound.. maybe i'm noticing it more as the engine cover and under tray wind deflector were missing, but i'm still unsure whats best to do with my spare scrappy injector and the ones currently in place, any thoughts?

Thanks

Al
Bick
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector issues, Diagbox help

Post by Bick »

Hi Al i have noticed the 2.0hdi's can be a little clattery especially when cold but never seems to bother them - the 1.6hdi is quiet by comparison.
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector issues, Diagbox help

Post by alDispatch »

Thanks Bick, yeah i'm hoping it's a normal rattle! Driving today i noticed sometimes when gently applying a bit of throttle, and then cruising in gear the rattle is only noticeable after releasing the throttle and continues for a while whilst cruising.. Does that sound normal? Also noticed a bit of smoke on startup again, so it would be good if anyone understands Diagbox's interpretation of injector flow correction, to help me swap out the worst injectors. I'm thinking maybe No.1 is a bit worn, hence why it needs less flow correction, and i'm now getting a bit more smoke? The Van also seems to vibrate, like a panting dog when cold now too, i'm guessing because of the uneven injector flow rates?
Bick
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector issues, Diagbox help

Post by Bick »

You could try running some Millers fuel treatment though that would be my first choice. You could also do a leak off test this would give you a visual indication of the injector condition. But 135k is not many miles to be honest on a 2.0hdi, ive seen many with over 200k on the original injectors.
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector issues, Diagbox help

Post by alDispatch »

I was thinking to do a leak off test, and think i have some spare pipe to attach, but was a bit worried about plugging the open ends and then getting the actual leak off pipes to re seal properly afterwards, but it's probably a good idea.
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? Diagbox help

Post by alDispatch »

I haven't had a chance to do anything yet, but i think i'll have time tomorrow afternoon to swap out injector No.4 and then maybe put No.2 back in No.1's Cylinder, or at least that's what i'm thinking seems like a good plan, i'm not sure whether a leak off test would show much? compared to the hassle and possible leaking leak off pipes after, but please if anyone uses Diagbox and knows what flow control percentages actually really mean, please let me know what you think would be best, and if a leak off would really show much that can't be seen from flow rates.

Thanks
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? Diagbox help

Post by alDispatch »

An update so far on my POS Dispatch van...

I thought after about 6 vans over 16 years all for under a grand, maybe i should get with the modern age, and buy a nice half decent up to date clever van at about £3000, and not have to worry about it crapping out on me for a while.. Well after about four months of owning and about 2 weeks of actual use so far and a total bill nearer £4000 with repairs later...

After swapping injectors around to get the best flow correction balance, I saw flow correction should be between 60%-140% (according to Diagbox) it kept stalling at the end of a long drive for a weekend away, and the clicky tappy noise got worse, we had to be recovered from Cornwall to london as it kept stalling, and the garage reckoned the HP pump was completely shot, i now have a re-built HP pump and £600 less, drove away from the garage and had to pull over and whack a smoky sticking rear pad loose, ok i can deal with that, it's been with them for 3 weeks... and then the air suspension warning lamp came on... only to be followed a few minutes later to it cutting out/stalling at idle waiting for a few sets of lights, finally i got only 1mile from home again, and it stalled at 10mph, i just managed to freewheel to the side of the road and park up.

I got a tow back as it wouldn't start. When home i temporarily whipped out an injector and put a spare in which got things going again, albeit lumpy idle.

I've now just come back from a diesel specialist and put in the best 4 out of my 7 injectors which all showed good for pressure tests and okish solenoids, and had a professional stip/clean and am now running again, but the clattering noise is just as bad as before and i have a bl**dy suspension that was at the top and wouldn't come down.

My idle flow corrections are still at the extremes below and above recommended by diagbox, and this is with the newly serviced injectors, so can it be the lifters or top end problems causing the noise and wild flow corrections?

So on to deal with the suspension, i released the air pipes in the shock bag things, and when defalted, replaced the pipes and got the manual buttons to raise it to level, good i thought... but it seems using diagbox/lexia to lower or open the electrovalves does nothing? anyone familiar with the van based suspension, and where are the electrovalves? attached to the pump? is it easy/possible to take off and test / repair them?

The only good news is i managed somehow to get it to pass the MOT today!

Al
ratbark
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? Diagbox help

Post by ratbark »

Morning Al.

I've read through your thread, and it sounds like we have similar problems with the same engine!

I'll start a new thread later regarding mine but just wanted to let you know you're not alone.

Mark
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? Diagbox help

Post by alDispatch »

Hi Mark, i look forward to hearing someone else's woes! If i can help i will. :-)
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? Diagbox help

Post by alDispatch »

Another update:

I've now installed 4 x re-conditioned injectors all with brand new siemens nozzles and new solenoids, for about £560 and the bl**dy rattle is still there. (instantly after ignition and first revs to hear it) Drove to local MOT place and he thinks still sounds like injectors!?

Image

Audio recording here: (My phone just placed near the bonnet latch)

https://clyp.it/2ukwehtk Anyone good with diagnosing engine rattles!?

Initially i ran diagbox and the re-conned injectors' flow corrections seemed okish:

Image

Then after an unfortunate drive to the shops and noticing diesel steam from the bonnet, due to a popped out injector leak off connector, after cleaning up and pushing it on, i got back home and tested again to find:

Image

Above seems to show the injector flow correction all over the place again when warm, and thats with a Complete high pressure fuel pump overhaul incl' FPR solenoid on the pump, new fuel filter bowl assembly, cleaned lines (but not tank), and the latest being the re-conned injectors, and still no solution, the rattle is still as prominent as ever, and i'm a bit scared to drive to a diesel specialist, incase it all gives up on me again.

Could my timing be off, or faulty BSI/ECU, or even the wrong injectors?
Any help much appreciated before i pull all my hair out. :(
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? + Whats Rattling?

Post by alDispatch »

It's my cam chain :(

Sounds like this >>>> https://clyp.it/2ukwehtk

Went to a third and final garage that had good reviews and could do diagnostics if needed, who managed to instantly tell the rattle was my cam chain, after the last two just thought it was injectors...

Anyway that means new cam belt and pump kit along with cam chain (didn't even realize it had a dual cam system) and a check of the lifters £840.. that will make it around £2k i'll have spent on a £3k van in 4 months, with only about 500miles since purchase.. and i havn't even replaced the stupid rear air suspension yet. :( :( :(
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? + Whats Rattling?

Post by jgra1 »

Bugger :(
alDispatch
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? + Whats Rattling?

Post by alDispatch »

jgra1 wrote:Bugger :(
Indeed.

The thought of ignoring the popped out leak-off pipe spurting diesel over the hot engine had crossed my mind :evil: !

She'd better run like a dream for years after all this [-o<
Ianmallett86
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Re: 2.0HDI 120hp Injector flow correction? + Whats Rattling?

Post by Ianmallett86 »

Hi, I know this is an old ish thread but it seems I have the same problem.was yours the cam chain or the chain tensioner?
Thanks in advance
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