Xantia timing
Moderator: RichardW
Xantia timing
HELPPPPP
Have read various very helpful posts on this subject. My dilemma started with needing to fit a new water pump - easier said than done.
All went well with the pump but ... those belts.
On the first fitting I tried a straight forward replacement - position of Cam and IP sprockets marked, new belt fitted without apparent movement of sprockets. All together. Try starter. Try again and again. Back to the drawing board with a re-strip.
Finally found hole behind starter (Xantia 2.1TD with epic!) I think! Positioned cam and IP sprockets following expert advice on here - IP sprocket was marginally out of phase with cam sprocket. Went through the procedure, again. Back to retry starter. No joy.
Had done all the rotations etc (Haynes) and all had seemed good but still no joy.
So, the question is - how do you know you have the right timing hole in the flywheel - I note on Haynes' diagrams there are 8 of these holes, either side of a protruding peg! Is there a layman's way of determining the correct one - No4 at TDC.
Couldn't see anything peering down behind starter - listened for clunk, clunk, clink of my inserted wire hitting the flywheel then the flywheel locking in what I thought was the right position. Obviously not, so how do I tell if I have the right hole?
Have read various very helpful posts on this subject. My dilemma started with needing to fit a new water pump - easier said than done.
All went well with the pump but ... those belts.
On the first fitting I tried a straight forward replacement - position of Cam and IP sprockets marked, new belt fitted without apparent movement of sprockets. All together. Try starter. Try again and again. Back to the drawing board with a re-strip.
Finally found hole behind starter (Xantia 2.1TD with epic!) I think! Positioned cam and IP sprockets following expert advice on here - IP sprocket was marginally out of phase with cam sprocket. Went through the procedure, again. Back to retry starter. No joy.
Had done all the rotations etc (Haynes) and all had seemed good but still no joy.
So, the question is - how do you know you have the right timing hole in the flywheel - I note on Haynes' diagrams there are 8 of these holes, either side of a protruding peg! Is there a layman's way of determining the correct one - No4 at TDC.
Couldn't see anything peering down behind starter - listened for clunk, clunk, clink of my inserted wire hitting the flywheel then the flywheel locking in what I thought was the right position. Obviously not, so how do I tell if I have the right hole?
- CitroJim
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Re: Xantia timing
Hi Froglet,
A quick and dirty test of correct crank positioning with regard to the pump and cam sprockets in their locked positions is to observe the crank woodruff key.
It should be at around 11-12 o'clock roughly...
I expect you're actually fine and the real problem is something has been disturbed electrically that's preventing the engine starting...
Diesels are very high interference engines and it does not take a very large deviation from correct timing to cause valve and pistons to become rather too intimate...
A quick and dirty test of correct crank positioning with regard to the pump and cam sprockets in their locked positions is to observe the crank woodruff key.
It should be at around 11-12 o'clock roughly...
I expect you're actually fine and the real problem is something has been disturbed electrically that's preventing the engine starting...
Diesels are very high interference engines and it does not take a very large deviation from correct timing to cause valve and pistons to become rather too intimate...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Re: Xantia timing
i cant remember if the 2.1 has as the 1.9TD a small square raised block in the casting just above the crank sprocket,
if it does have this, then bring the rear edge/face of the woodruff ket on the crank shaft in line with the front edge/face of this small raised block,
then as long as the cam/pump locking pegs go were there spoz to, the flywheel locking pin will go in, maybe with just a gnats whisker of rocking the crank and it will drop in
if it does have this, then bring the rear edge/face of the woodruff ket on the crank shaft in line with the front edge/face of this small raised block,
then as long as the cam/pump locking pegs go were there spoz to, the flywheel locking pin will go in, maybe with just a gnats whisker of rocking the crank and it will drop in
Regards, malcolm.
current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
Re: Xantia timing
Hi Guys - brilliant as always but ...
Jim, yes that's roughly the position I was using. Interestingly enough I've found another crank locking position at 6o'clock (woodruff key at bottom)
Malcolm, there is a block with a cut-out that roughly aligns with the 11o'clock position.
So ... onto other problems!Electrical - where do I start???
Thanks again
Jim, yes that's roughly the position I was using. Interestingly enough I've found another crank locking position at 6o'clock (woodruff key at bottom)
Malcolm, there is a block with a cut-out that roughly aligns with the 11o'clock position.
So ... onto other problems!Electrical - where do I start???
Thanks again
- CitroJim
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Re: Xantia timing
The 11 o'clock one will be the right one then if that corresponds with your original...
Electrical: think back to what you have disturbed to do the job and check it is all back exactly where it belongs..
Electrical: think back to what you have disturbed to do the job and check it is all back exactly where it belongs..
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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Re: Xantia timing
Thanks again Jim - just been called back in from the drawing board.
Things are now even more curious? Despite all the procedures and checks mentioned above I have stripped back again to bare bones and now neither the cam nor the IP sprockets are at the correct points!
I do see that there are several drillings in the IP sprocket (Haynes says only one for the 2.1TD) and I'm sure I used the original as lined up when first stripped but how can the cam sprocket move out of relation to the IP sprocket? Even so, when I went through the rotation procedure they all stayed in sync.
Things are now even more curious? Despite all the procedures and checks mentioned above I have stripped back again to bare bones and now neither the cam nor the IP sprockets are at the correct points!
I do see that there are several drillings in the IP sprocket (Haynes says only one for the 2.1TD) and I'm sure I used the original as lined up when first stripped but how can the cam sprocket move out of relation to the IP sprocket? Even so, when I went through the rotation procedure they all stayed in sync.
- CitroJim
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Re: Xantia timing
That is curious...
The pump sprocket should have two index holes. When in time about 2 and 4 o'clock. The reason for the two is so that the sprocket can be held rigid to enable the pump to be removed without disturbing the timing belt.
The two holes in the sprocket will line up with M8 tappings and that's how you know you're in the right holes.
I'd line up the crank at 11 0'clock and lock it and then bring the cam and pump into time but be very careful as it is easy to kiss valves this way. Turn each very carefully and if y0u feel the crank go tight back off and move the cam a bit.. Basically move each in baby-steps if need be until all is in time and then refit the belt, remove the locks and spin over at least three times fully by hand before going for a start. If it feels tight or locks up then revisit the timing again.
If the pump was that far out of time then no way was the engine going to start...
Fingers crossed all will now be good
The pump sprocket should have two index holes. When in time about 2 and 4 o'clock. The reason for the two is so that the sprocket can be held rigid to enable the pump to be removed without disturbing the timing belt.
The two holes in the sprocket will line up with M8 tappings and that's how you know you're in the right holes.
I'd line up the crank at 11 0'clock and lock it and then bring the cam and pump into time but be very careful as it is easy to kiss valves this way. Turn each very carefully and if y0u feel the crank go tight back off and move the cam a bit.. Basically move each in baby-steps if need be until all is in time and then refit the belt, remove the locks and spin over at least three times fully by hand before going for a start. If it feels tight or locks up then revisit the timing again.
If the pump was that far out of time then no way was the engine going to start...
Fingers crossed all will now be good
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Re: Xantia timing
if ever i have things all out of sink ( no not the kitchen sink ) with the cam belt removed i would gently bring the crank to its pegging off point, then turn it a quarter of a turn back as this will make sure non of the pistons are anywhere near the valves on gently setting/pegging the cam off,
as Sir Jim says with the two locking points both being pegged off,
sounds the me the not starting issue is due to pump timing way out then
as Sir Jim says with the two locking points both being pegged off,
sounds the me the not starting issue is due to pump timing way out then
Regards, malcolm.
current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
Re: Xantia timing
After the posts last night, during the baby steps re-timing, I had a 'midnight moment'. With the crank at TDC it could just as easily be at the start of the power stroke, rather then induction - the pump and cam sockets wouldn't be at their correct timing points; hence the way-out positions. If I turn the crank another full turn, perhaps the positions were not so out.(Past tense)
Apart from taking off the cam cover to check valve positions, is there another way of checking that TDC is actually for start of induction rather than power stroke. (It was so much easier with petrol - wait for the spark, tune from there!)
Apart from taking off the cam cover to check valve positions, is there another way of checking that TDC is actually for start of induction rather than power stroke. (It was so much easier with petrol - wait for the spark, tune from there!)
Re: Xantia timing
Sorry all - minor mental aberration, still thinking backwards. Of coursed No4 should be at TDC on compression stroke but the problem still remains. How do you check for the correct TDC at the correct (comression) time. Is it a case of removing an injector or is there an easier secret?
OR - is it the case that it doesn't make any difference. If you turn the crank with the cam belt off and then align the sprockets (baby steps) the TDC BECOMES the TDC for compression? Can' t be that simple must be something else!?
OR - is it the case that it doesn't make any difference. If you turn the crank with the cam belt off and then align the sprockets (baby steps) the TDC BECOMES the TDC for compression? Can' t be that simple must be something else!?
- CitroJim
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Re: Xantia timing
I'd be amazed if you've got the timing completely 180 degrees out Froglet as to get there you'd have had valve kisses for sure...
There is no easy way to check which is at TDC in an XUD11.. The old original XUD9 had the facility via a removable plug in the head to check when No.4 was at TDC but this was deleted quite early on...
There is no easy way to check which is at TDC in an XUD11.. The old original XUD9 had the facility via a removable plug in the head to check when No.4 was at TDC but this was deleted quite early on...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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Re: Xantia timing
My 205TD had that too. I think it was just for Lucas (or just for Bosch) pumps though. To be honest I never looked twice at it once I'd checked it was tight.CitroJim wrote:There is no easy way to check which is at TDC in an XUD11.. The old original XUD9 had the facility via a removable plug in the head to check when No.4 was at TDC but this was deleted quite early on...
Regarding TDC on the XUD11: I was going to suggest perhaps removing a glowplug and then feeling for compression maybe ? , although that does not sound too good an idea to be honest when I think about it. As mentioned I guess the alternative would be to take the cam cover off and see where the lobes are.
Andy.
91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
- CitroJim
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Re: Xantia timing
I think it was deleted when the pump changed from the purely mechanical Bosch to the semi-electronic AS3 Andy... About 1995'ish...
No, you can't remove a glowplug or injector to look for TDC as they emerge into the pre-chambers and therefore no direct access to the pistons...
No, you can't remove a glowplug or injector to look for TDC as they emerge into the pre-chambers and therefore no direct access to the pistons...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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Re: Xantia timing
As said, you'd have done well to be out on the crank timing! When i did the dw8 there was a locking hole on the flywheek which took a litle bit of work to get to, but made the job so much easier (given that the timing had been screwed because the aux belt had got chewed into it!)
Stu
Cars
1995 Xantia 1.9TD SX in (faded) Red
2003 Fiesta 1.4 Zetec in GREEEEEEEN
2001 206 1.9 LX
2001 Saxo VTR
1999 Saxo 1.1 East coast
1999 Punto
1996 306 1.8 XN Auto
1996 Fiesta 1.3
Cars
1995 Xantia 1.9TD SX in (faded) Red
2003 Fiesta 1.4 Zetec in GREEEEEEEN
2001 206 1.9 LX
2001 Saxo VTR
1999 Saxo 1.1 East coast
1999 Punto
1996 306 1.8 XN Auto
1996 Fiesta 1.3
- spider
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Re: Xantia timing
Ah that explains it.CitroJim wrote:I think it was deleted when the pump changed from the purely mechanical Bosch to the semi-electronic AS3 Andy... About 1995'ish...
No, you can't remove a glowplug or injector to look for TDC as they emerge into the pre-chambers and therefore no direct access to the pistons...
Regarding TDC, I was thinking about feeling for pressure build up with a glowplug removed, rather than try to make use of the orifice (I know there's no easy access as such)
Cam cover to observe lobe position might be the other way then.
I do agree with the careful jiggle method for moving cam / crank if its totally been lost I've had to do that before once.
Andy.
91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG