Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

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Deequeue
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Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by Deequeue »

Hi All,

Hoping I can get a little advice here. Had a problem on Monday where my x-reg 1.9 dispatch wouldnt start.

Was working perfectly in the morning, then nowt. No smoke from exhaust on cranking, and I cant see any bubbles in the fuel line, which along with the fact that it eventually kicked in, got me home then subsequently wont start, leads me to think that i've got either a fuel pump solenoid or pump relay issue.

Am I correct in thinking that the pump relay is the inch square black relay bolted to the O/S inner wing, has a push fit connector with a red push through locking tab? If thats the case, I have removed and cleaned the contacts, and it is definitely clicking when the ignition is turned on. If not, what should I be looking for, as there is definitely another relay clicking about in there, but with the nights coming in early, I havent had a chance to check comprehensively.


As the van has an immobilizer, I cant get to the solenoid without removing the tamper plate, as far as I know. Can anyone tell me which connections from the relay supply the solenoid so that I can test? My initial thought is that I can hook a temporary 12v supply to the appropriate pin to try and get the solenoid to activate.


Other than that, From what I can see, the only thing I can do is pull the fuel pump, check the solenoid, switch if faulty and wire it in to a switched live (the reverse switch seems to be a favourite from what I can see) losing the immobilizer in the process.


Are there any guides for the pump removal? It appears that its a cambelt off job to do it, so I guess I will need a locking tool of some sort?


Thanks in advance for any advice.


Dale
citronut
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by citronut »

not sure on the Dispatch regarding which relays are what,

but if your pump hase the immobilisers in behind the armor on the back of the pump, you will not be able to bypass the electronics straight to the solenoid shut off valve,

when you are sure its the immobilisers or solenoid valve gone down, you will need to de/armor the rear of the pump,

i have done this a couple of times now in situe( not on a Dispatch though ),

there are some torx/allen key bolts, then also some shear bolts some of which appear hidden/out of sight,

just need loads of PERCY WHAT SIT ( aint used that one in a long time ) :yikes: :eye: :eye: :-D :lol: :wink: ,

one the immobilisers is de/armored you need to pick up a switched live from one of the plug blocks mounted at the front of the pump, and connect this straight to the solenoid valve

were are you located, as there might be a forum member with a LEXIA local'ish to you, view the LEXIA location map in the link below

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 19&t=29178" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
Deequeue
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by Deequeue »

Hi Malcolm,

Thanks for the reply :)

Bugger, not as easy as I thought then. I have a copy of Autodata here, hopefully the wiring diagrams on that will give me some information so I can find if its the solenoid or immob circuits; the warning light does appear to be working as it should though - flashes when key is out and ign off, stops flashing when the ign is turned on.

Guess I'll have to strip the intake manifold off, as it sits directly above the armoured plating on the dispatch.

I guess whatever way round it is, I'll potentially end up needing the armour off anyway...


Oh, and I'm up in Newcastle / Gateshead - had a brief search through the Lexia location, and it looks like there are a couple of people with the kit near me - I assume its just a case of PM / calling as the notes say on the map? WIll the diag system be able to see a failed solenoid, or will it be a case of ruling out the immob system with it?


Dale
citronut
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by citronut »

on my R reg 98 XANT with the Bosch pump the immobilisers PCB is behind the armor, and i dont think any Autodata wiring diagram will give you a break down of this,

also later PSA vehicles had the immobilisers /code was in the engine ECU, i dont know which type your Dispatch will have
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
Deequeue
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by Deequeue »

Ahh, - From that it sounds like the wiring runs direct to the PCB, and from there to the solenoid then?


I had made the assumption it would be a double run from the relay to both the PCB and solenoid.


Going to drop one of the guys a message and see if the Lexia can tell me anything. Whats the best handbook to get? - i've been told the haynes is notoriously crap for this model.
ekjdm14
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My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by ekjdm14 »

Our '96 ZX has the lucas pump & the stop solenoid had failed due to a broken wire. It was fairly easy to cut through the armour with a cut off wheel (would have been a PITA with a hacksaw though!) but one caveat, keep an extinguisher handy and try to pack plenty of soaking wet rag around where you'll be sending sparks as you don't want to set any leaked fuel/oil on fire! once it's out of the way I personally cut the 2 wires (well, one was already broken off flush with where it enters the solenoid body) and tapped the solenoid anticlockwise with a cold chisel (I didn't cut the shielding low enough to get a socket on it!) and I powered the new non-immobiliser type solenoid as described, from an ignition live at one of the pins from the black plug at the front of the pump. The new solenoid was about £6 from ebay, just to note that when first fitted it didn't allow the engine to fully stop for a few hours, presumably due to the new plunger's rubber tip taking a while to "mould" to the shape of it's seat. After standing overnight the engine stops straight away, so if it does keep "stumbling" when you switch off after fitting the new one don't panic & let it settle before thinking (as I did initially) that the new solenoid was faulty :)

Oh, and Haynes in general is known as the book of lies, not for nothing either. I've only really used them for wiring diagrams but for French vehicles even this isn't easy as there seem to be so many different specs/configurations that they only give "typical" examples. This can be helpful to identify multiplug & wiring colours but not much else I've found.
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
citronut
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by citronut »

i just cut enough of any armor away to gain access with a center punch at the shear bolt heads, so i could drift them loose with the center punch,

you risk causing damage to bits you dont want to with a cut off wheel
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
Deequeue
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by Deequeue »

Thanks for the advice guys - its gratefully received. I'm glad to hear that removing the pump isn't the only way to gain access to the solenoid though - although removing the cambelt isnt a massive issue, Its nice to know that it can be done without, even if I do have to remove some associated parts.


With any luck I will be able to get the van into my garage this weekend and start working on it.
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by ekjdm14 »

citronut wrote:i just cut enough of any armor away to gain access with a center punch at the shear bolt heads, so i could drift them loose with the center punch,

you risk causing damage to bits you dont want to with a cut off wheel
True, suppose I just have a steady hand haha & I wanted in quickly (it was a case of either the solenoid or the pump shaft was faulty, and if it was the pump shaft my better half wanted rid sharpish, so I had to git 'er done!) :lol:

With more time to play & find all the bolts I'd have done it the way you did & removed the armour completely (and may still do in the future) as it would look a lot neater without the now useless remains still attached, and there is a risk if you cut too deep you may damage other wiring that hides under the shield, although on ours it was buried deep down the side of the solenoid so wasn't in any danger.
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by spider »

The non plexed ones usually have the cph/texton buried up in the dash, wired to the transponder pickup and a small electronic box under the armour as well (this is the 'other end' of the texton as such.

If taking it off completely, be aware not to remove too many bolts from the head of the pump and you may need shorter bolts or washers to compensate for the length difference without the armour.

As a 'Andy's tip' although in the past it was found to wire it to the reverse lights or suchlike (anything that was live and stayed live with it in 'start') , the four pin plug going inside the armour, one of these should be an ignition live as that's where it powers the module inside the pump and also gets its supply from for the solenoid.

I did mine very neatly (a touch of OCD maybe) and ended up with the four pin plug with just one pin / wire going to a soldered and heatshrunk eyelet on the other end of the cable. It looked factory.

Finally (sorry!) on some models the connector on the solenoid is not a decent fit without the amour, and I found on some the solenoid fitted does not ahve any thread on the connection 'tip' had to replace it. A temp alternative is to cable tie the plug on the solenoid, you'll see exactly what I mean when you remove it anyway if this is the case.
Andy.

91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
Deequeue
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by Deequeue »

Right - o

So, after doing some more testing today, definitely getting 12v to the connector on the front of the fuel pump. I pulled one of the connectors to the top of the injectors, and they were well and truly dry - no fuel at all.

So, decided it was time to attack the cover and see what was underneath.


Managed to get the top off, and get to the solenoid. That was a right pain in the arse, as there was no socket area on the thing. Fortunately, there were a number of drift notches on the metal casing, so a hammer and some carefully applied force removed thee thing. It appears that all the electronics are contained in a metal shield / casing on top of the solenoid itself, although I can say for definite that the solenoid itself isnt moving at all when it receives the 12v, so looks like that is my issue.

Sooooo, its now saturday, so of course I cant get hold of a new one!


Any suggestions? I cant run it to test, as removing the solenoid opens the system up to the air. I had thought about grabbing a 14mm threaded bolt, chucking an oring on and screwing it in to test. If it comes to it, I'm aware that I can use the stop lever on the fuel pump to kill the motor if needs be, or chuck it in 5th gear and stall it.


I'll see if I can get some pics up for others.

Dale
citronut
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by citronut »

just remove the plunger from in the end of the solenoid, then screw the solenoid back into the pump, i would also connect the solenoid across a battery to make 100%sure it aint working before you disregard it
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
Deequeue
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Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by Deequeue »

Cheers Malcolm - didnt realise the plunger came out, thought it was fixed in :)

Odd question, but is the casing ground on the solenoid? There are 3 wires going in, and I assume one is the 12v feed, one ground, and one the lower voltage to keep the solenoid open on the standard setup. I've not gutted the thing as yet so have no idea which is which.
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
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x 92

Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by citronut »

i thought the case/body is ground/earth
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
ekjdm14
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 1810
Joined: 19 Jan 2015, 17:42
Location: Congleton
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: '95 Xantia 1.9D automatic - 109k one of two remaining
'03 206 GTi180 - 97k in pieces being brought back up to snuff
'03 206 1.9TD - home-built veg-fuelled B-road bruiser
'99 306 SE 2.0i cabriolet - 92k awaiting service work ready for next summer
'97 306 XS 1.6i 3 door, Bianca White, from dead 12 years & seized solid to road legal in 7 days
x 212

Re: Dispatch 1.9D Lucas Fuel Pump / Solenoid

Post by ekjdm14 »

Deequeue wrote:Cheers Malcolm - didnt realise the plunger came out, thought it was fixed in :)
Forgot to mention this, while we waited for the new part from ebay we ran round for a few days with the plunger removed. Just have to stall it to "switch off" the engine then :)
'95 Xantia LX 1.9D-auto, Black, 109k
'03 206 GTi180 94k in surgery
'03 206 1.1S XUD9TE/veg project :mrgreen:
'99 306 2.0SE cabriolet 95k summer toy
'97 306 XS 1.6i 99k sat 12 years, fixed in 7 days, 150mile maiden voyage :rofl2:
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