Picasso faults

[davecmusic]

Bought an 05 PIcassso 2.0 HDi to replace my old one (2002) which suffered severe corrosion due to rusted outer and inner ns sill (a gap of 1 cm between the floor and inner sill under the rear door). Check crash repairs are done properly! Ten years later it rots out.

New one was fine, full service history and drove great on the test. Bought it form a dealer. Three weeks later the car broke down on the 15th December after misfiring on the approach to a set of traffic lights. I restarted the car and the engine revved to a medium speed and stayed there. The accelerator would not function, the management light came on and engine fault was displayed on the dashboard computer. The car engine turned off after 20 seconds. I restarted it several times and then had to reverse the car within the 20 seconds as it was blocking a major traffic light junction. I them phoned my recover service GEM.

The engineer who came out diagnosed engine management failure and the car was put onto a flat bed and transported to my local garage some 25 miles away near my home. My mechanic performed a diagnostic on the at at my expense the results of which are attached to this email. As the car would not run properly he wiped the ECU codes after keeping a record but the car would still not run properly. He then disconnected the battery for 10 minutes to reset it, put the battery on and the car is currently running and several previous functions have come back on such as the rear wiper activating when the car is put in reverse with the front wipers on. Fault codes that flash up are P193 and P194, something with the common rail system though once the disconnect and reconnect I am not sure if they are back. Other faults before the reset where Turbo boost pressure, preheating relay status, fuel pressure sensors supply, fuel pressure, Fo190, P3001. These could have been there for awhile and are now wiped.

His view is that there is something wrong with the car and that it cannot be considered 100% reliable. As a result I am very concerned that the car may well suffer another breakdown, and that if this was on the motorway it could prove to be very serious indeed. The wind today gave me a real shock as I thought it was going to go wrong on the outside of the M62! Last pic still runs fine though its going to the scrap due to the body. Its done 130k.

Anyone got any ideas? I am suspicious as the rear wiper is now behaving as I said above, though the relay is now clicking a lot and the wiper sometimes sweeps 3 times instead of once on intermittent. Car is currently running fine.

Thanks

Dave

[miked]

full service history and drove great on the test. Bought it form a dealer. Three weeks later the car broke down on the 15th December
Dave

What sort of dealer?

The fault codes you mentioned, Pxxx, Pyyy would suggest that a generic code reader was used. I don't want to offend to the mechanic you used, who probably has a generic code reader which will plug in to any make of car, but I would advice you to seek out a peugeot or citroen specialist who have the diagnostic equipment which will give a lot more information than a P-code.

By the way, I can't see the results you say are attached to this email. Did you copy this from an email you sent?

Edit: Could you confirm, it's a Xsara picasso Hdi? So 8 valve 90 Hp? It's known to be a good engine. If so, have a look here for specialists: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF ... 27&t=h&z=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hell Razor5543]

There are forum members with Lexia clones that can properly read Citroen/Peugeot ECUs and their fault codes. Here is the list;

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 19&t=29178" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[davecmusic]

Thanks for the reply. By dealer I mean the 2nd had car dealer I used in Manchester. The car is the 2.0hdi not the 1.6 as I didn't want the DMF issues in the future or the particulate filters. My last Picasso did 130k and never gave a days trouble. If the corrosion had not been so bad I would still be driving it.

It was a generic code reader not a Citroen one but my local mechanic has saved me lots over the past few years and didn't charge to read it this time which was an early Christmas gift. I have looked on the map and will try and see if I can get some help, I think Robert12 may be nearest. That said I am away for a few days and then its Christmas day. I have emailed the second had dealer and told him if it packs in again I will start small claims. That said if its a small issue I still have my 2002 pic with all its bits and the same engine so I could take parts of that. I would upload the pictures of the code reader display but I am not sure how.

Thing is how would leaving the battery off for 10 minutes lead to it behaving itself? That and the mysterious rear wiper coming back to life when reverse is engaged? Is this a Picasso issue as my previous car had one with a mind of its own.

[dnsey]

Disconnecting the battery resets the BSI (central computer), and can clear all sorts of obscure faults.
If your old vehicle is going to be scrapped anyway, why not do a complete engine swap if the fault proves elusive?
Have you tested the battery? Even a slightly low voltage can cause just the sort of things you're experiencing (again, if it's any good, try fitting your old battery for a while).

[davecmusic]

Perhaps that's what happens. I've only had it 3 weeks so if it goes wrong I am sending it back to the used car dealer. The old one has done 50 thousand more miles so not going to swap engines. That said there is nothing wrong with it as I've had it from new and ran it in properly. Seems a shame to scrap it but that's life.

Mind you I will consider offers for the old car if anyone needs an engine or box (and its had the belts changed and always been serviced)

I have noticed the new one turns over a bit slower than the old one so will do a test on the battery. Will put down anything else the new one does. Just as long as it doesn't die on the m'way, had a Corolla do that many years ago in the outside lane and it was rather frightening!

[citronut]

if the old cars engine is good it doesn't matter if its done 50K more than the new one,

although you shouldn't need to be doing anything as thats down to the dealer you bought it from

[Xantidote]

although you shouldn't need to be doing anything as thats down to the dealer you bought it from

I'm not sure on the legal side, but in replies I've read from Honest John in the Daily Telegraph, you may have to give the selling garage the opportunity to put matters right, before involving the Small Claims Court.

I expect there's a bit of legal advice elsewhere on this forum, if you can find it. Alternatively, Citizens Advice. You're doing what I'd do, and I suspect would many of us on the forum would do, and that's sort it out ourselves, which is OK if it's easily sorted, and it of course saves the hassle with the vendor.

[Oliver53]

Bought an 05 PIcassso 2.0 HDi to replace my old one (2002) which suffered severe corrosion due to rusted outer and inner ns sill (a gap of 1 cm between the floor and inner sill under the rear door). Check crash repairs are done properly! Ten years later it rots out.

New one was fine, full service history and drove great on the test. Bought it form a dealer. Three weeks later the car broke down on the 15th December after misfiring on the approach to a set of traffic lights. I restarted the car and the engine revved to a medium speed and stayed there. The accelerator would not function, the management light came on and engine fault was displayed on the dashboard computer. The car engine turned off after 20 seconds. I restarted it several times and then had to reverse the car within the 20 seconds as it was blocking a major traffic light junction. I them phoned my recover service GEM.

The engineer who came out diagnosed engine management failure and the car was put onto a flat bed and transported to my local garage some 25 miles away near my home. My mechanic performed a diagnostic on the at at my expense the results of which are attached to this email. As the car would not run properly he wiped the ECU codes after keeping a record but the car would still not run properly. He then disconnected the battery for 10 minutes to reset it, put the battery on and the car is currently running and several previous functions have come back on such as the rear wiper activating when the car is put in reverse with the front wipers on. Fault codes that flash up are P193 and P194, something with the common rail system though once the disconnect and reconnect I am not sure if they are back. Other faults before the reset where Turbo boost pressure, preheating relay status, fuel pressure sensors supply, fuel pressure, Fo190, P3001. These could have been there for awhile and are now wiped.

His view is that there is something wrong with the car and that it cannot be considered 100% reliable. As a result I am very concerned that the car may well suffer another breakdown, and that if this was on the motorway it could prove to be very serious indeed. The wind today gave me a real shock as I thought it was going to go wrong on the outside of the M62! Last pic still runs fine though its going to the scrap due to the body. Its done 130k.

Anyone got any ideas? I am suspicious as the rear wiper is now behaving as I said above, though the relay is now clicking a lot and the wiper sometimes sweeps 3 times instead of once on intermittent. Car is currently running fine.

Thanks

Dave

It sounds like a electric problem, i.e. harness, connectors or ECU. P0190/193/194/3001 are all rail pressure sensor related. First of all, carefully check every connector of the sensors and the ECU, unplug them one by one, inspect if any of the pins are corroded. If no obvious damage is found, and the problem persists, you'll have to use some tools.

Find a lexia and use it to check the sensor readings at Key on engine stationary, cranking and engine running to see if any abnormal readings. And actually when a fault code is stored, the key sensor readings are stored as well, this is so called "freeze frame". Using that kind of data, one may be able to identify the real problem. However this requires relatively deep understanding of the system...

If you can't find a Lexia, you may just use a multimeter to diagnose the problem. Since the fault codes have suggested a rail pressure related problem, you may start with the rail pressure sensor (it's located on the rail), checking its connector and wires. An example of how to check the harness:
Disconnect the connector on the rail pressure sensor, turn ignition key to ON position, using a multi-meter to measure the harness side. There should be 3 pins, one is 5V supply, one is ground (0V), then the signal. when sensor is disconnected, in this case, you should see 0V on the signal pin(because normally pressure sensors are pulled down to ground by the ECU); if you see any other value, the harness or the ECU connector or ECU itself is faulty.

[davecmusic]

Here we go again... Had the faults cleared, nothing came up again. Now a few weeks later I have noticed the rear window wiper went a bit loopy (refused to park) then settled down, then the turbo has a low pitched whistle (sounds a bit like an owl) but not too loud, and I figure that's just this car. So today I go out, start it, realise the rain has frozen, get out to get the de-icer and the car misfires, goes to a very fast idle and "engine fault" appears on the dash, the warning buzzer is beeping and the management light is on. I turn it off, restart and its the same. Took the battery off, left it for 20 mins, out it back on and after a minute start it. No difference, same problem and warnings.
Called GEM (very good service) and they sent out Egertons recovery. The guy plugs in his state of the art reader (tells me it cost a few grand) and enters the car details. Up pop multiple unknown codes, a PO901 code and a warning about the air-con wiring. He restarts the car and it emits a really loud diesel knock (like an old bus engine) and spike revs. At this point he turns it off and tells me that the sound is the same as a turbo issue just before the engine starts to run on the lubricant and self destruct. He then tells me not to start it and we both push it onto the drive.

So I ring the dealer who sold it and they tell me that its not covered. One long "chat" about the sale of goods act and they ask ME to take it from Warrington to Manchester so they can look at it. I tell them no and have rejected the car. Either they or Barclaycard can deal with it. Has anyone else either any idea what's wrong with it, and/or had experience of rejecting a car. I told them in December when I had had it for 4 weeks that if it did it again I would be rejecting it. Help appreciated!

BTW is the 206 Hdi any good?

[citronut]

to run on its own engine oil i would think the oil level has to be excessively high, this is usually caused by diesel fuel getting past the pistons into the sump,

this is the way i understand whaty happens when a diesel engine goes into the run away of death anyhow,

so first thing i would do is check the oil level with the dip stick, not by the electronic gauge if it has one,

if the level is way to high drain it and put fresh oil in, then give that a go

[davecmusic]

Thought I might follow up with my latest on the Picasso saga. Having had all the sound advice (thankyou) before I started to tear the car apart I wrote to the previous owner, something worth doing. He very kindly responded and told me he had part exchanged the Picasso for £500 in October (the month before I bought it) as it kept displaying the same faults I was now seeing. Considering I paid £1850 for it I now realised that the second hand car dealer I bought from was selling me a dud. The previous owner told me the car had had a full specialist investigation, a new ECU, a new main engine fuse box and the inlet to the engine with all sensors all of which did not remove the issue. He said that when they wanted to start to replace the wiring loom he disposed of the car and informed the dealer (looker in Chester I think) of the issues, hence the low price for part ex. My dealer who I bought it off must have been aware of the issues in the trade auction I am sure but still refuses a refund and as he is mechanically illiterate ( apparently a turbo lasts as long as a clutch) I refuse to let him bodge (sorry fix) it. So I am now claiming on my credit card under section 75 joint liability. I recommend buying cars this was for this reason! I will let you know how that goes as I see it now as a silver Citroen Picasso Money-pit Exclusive on my drive.

So I now have a Xantia Estate 2.0 HDi on a T reg with 143k on the clock which is a little tatty paint wise, smells like a cigarette bin but has never wanted for any repairs and has everything including the aircon working. I am intending to keep this as its great to drive and I used to have one. Just need to sort out a vibration around 65 to 70 which may be the wheels out of balance (hopefully) and have topped up the LHM tonight though I had to order it in. Will let you know how getting the money back for the silver statue goes.

[davecmusic]

Further to the above the good news is that after 3 months the credit card company have refunded me and are taking the sick Pic away.

Shows that its worth buying things on credit card.

I also spoke to the garage in Wrexham who had been trying to fix it before I bought it and they told me everything tested fine twice, but when it rained something was tracking out and driving the car mad. Thats why they suggested to replace the wiring loom as it appeared to be tracking out in the damp. Anyway I am glad to see the back of it, the old one with its holes has gone to be tin cans and the Xantia is behaving itself so I am keeping it.

[Subsonicnat]

Just in case somebody reads this after this poor chap had problems with the DEALER.
under legistlation,,A 3 months warrenty should have automaticauly been the option.
There is no get out clause if he is a DEALER.