MAF Sensor Issues...

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DHallworth
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MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by DHallworth »

Have put this in the Peugeot section but putting it here as well to get maximum exposure... Besides... It's a Citroen engine :P

A friend of mine has done a nut and bolt restore on a 205 GTi.

When he did the restore he has changed the engine for a Xsara VTS engine. For the electrics to work, it's running a 306 GTi wiring loom and ECU from a Phase 2 306.

The car has a cold start issue where it cuts out unless you keep the revs on until it's up to standard operating temperature. Once it's up to temperature, the car has a flat spot.

I said to him that the issue sounded like a MAP sensor problem so he ordered a new genuine MAP sensor and changed it, this made no difference whatsoever. We plugged it into Peugeot Planet tonight and had a look at the codes, I was right about the issue being a MAP sensor fault as that was the only fault showing. We had a look at the wiring diagram and checked for any breaks in the loom going back to the ECU, all tested ok.

We then took the MAF off the Activa and measured the voltages at the plug and compared this to the 205. Again, everything tested ok. We tried the MAF from my red V6 XM and the brand new MAF that I've got on the Activa and none of them made any difference.

In Peugeot Planet the reading for the MAF was stationary and wasn't changing at all when the engine was revved so I'm fairly sure that it's definitely a fault with the MAP sensor.

My pins outs are:

Pin 1: ECU
Pin 2: Negative
Pin 3: Positive

Any advice that you guys can offer would be much appreciated as I'm at a loss now, other then the ECU I don't know what else to try!

David.
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by Mandrake »

Hi David,

I assume you mean MAP sensor not MAF, if you were able to swap the one off your Activa V6, which definitely is a MAP sensor.

The symptoms you describe do sound like they could be a faulty MAP sensor signal - depending on how its faulty (signal voltage held low or held high) it can behave exactly like you say - failing to start and stalling when cold unless you open the throttle, then sort of working ok when hot but with a hesitation/stumble when you accelerate. My first V6 behaved exactly like this with a faulty MAP sensor.

Measuring the voltages on the connector with the MAP unplugged won't tell you a lot - two of the pins are 5 volts (which comes from the ECU) and earth, they can be checked unplugged, but the signal voltage can only be checked while connected. What you really need is to back probe the connector using something like this test lead I made up:

Image

I have a spare one of these test leads somewhere if you want to borrow it, or you can improvise by carefully pushing three very thin sewing needles (that's all I used on the end of my lead) down the wires, then you can take measurements while it's connected and the engine is running.

What you want to compare is the voltage on the signal wire measured while the sensor is connected, to the manifold pressure reported on the Lexia. (in millibars)

4.7v = approx 1000 millibars and 0v = approx 0 millibars with a proportional change in between. Depending on the ECU the Lexia might also provide the voltage reading so you can directly compare it to a voltmeter reading.

With key on engine off the Lexia should report ambient conditions - eg around 1000mb, (or a bit less in Scotland typically :twisted: ) which equates to around 4.7 volts. With the engine running and throttle not open much it should be around 300-400mb or about 1 - 1.5 volts. Unfortunately you can't test it while cranking (and failing to start) because during a crank the ICV will be wide open so there won't be much manifold vacuum. So it needs to actually run to generate vacuum and allow the pressure reading to drop.

You say the reading wasn't changing, but what was the reading ? Given the engine, ECU and loom swapping that has gone on there is always the possibility that they are not all entirely compatible with each other and might need a bodge to get it to work...do you have the wiring diagrams for both the Xsara VTS and the 306 GTi to compare ?

Where abouts is the car located ?
Simon

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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by DHallworth »

Hi Simon,

You're quite right, I do indeed mean MAP sensor, not MAF!

I pinned it out with the meter so I knew that the ECU was powering the sensor, thus eliminating breaks in the loom and in theory an ECU fault as it's powering the sensor, I then metered out the 3rd pin from the sensor straight to the ECU.

I wondered about the sensor readings not being compatible with the ECU but then realised that they were the same part no as what's fitted to the Activa.

From memory the reading when interrogating the ECU is around 427mb.

The stored fault code is "Permanent Fault. Inlet manifold pressure sensor function". With the sensor unplugged the fault code is "Inlet manifold pressure sensor short circuit to -ve" so the ECU is definitely seeing something happen when the sensor is plugged in!

The car is located in Port Glasgow, just a little further down the M8 from us in Langbank.

David.
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by DHallworth »

The only thing I am wondering is wether or not the earlier MAP sensors that use the different plug talk to the ECU in a different manner.

If you remember Simon, your MAP has a different plug from mine.

David.
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by Mandrake »

Hi David,

I'm pretty sure that the only difference between the early and late design MAP sensor on the V6 is the physical shape of the plug - electrically they are compatible.

Nearly all MAP sensors on modern Petrols work the same way - one pin is ground, one is a 5 volt DC regulated supply provided from the ECU that runs the internal circuitry in the MAP sensor (it has a surface mount IC and a few other components) and the signal wire is simply a DC voltage output from the chip on the sensor that varies between 0 and 5 volts with 0 being low pressure and 5 being high pressure. (Actual range will be a bit less, probably 0.3v to 4.7v)

The only difference you'll ever see in design is turbo engines will have a different calibration of the output voltage - on a NA engine the MAP sensor will have a maximum pressure reading of 1 bar, (nearly 5 volts) but on a turbo you'll have a 2 bar or 3 bar MAP sensor - in that case 5v corresponds to 2 bars or 3 bars instead of 1 bar and intermediate values are scaled accordingly but the principle of operation is the same. Obviously because of this you can't swap MAP sensors between turbo and non turbo engines even if the pinout is compatible because of this different calibration - the ECU will interpret the wrong pressure reading from the voltage.

For example a 2 bar sensor from a turbo fitted to a NA engine would only indicated about 2.5 volts at atmospheric pressure instead of nearly 5 volts, so the ECU would interpret that as a pressure of about 500mb instead of 1000mb which would almost certainly set a fault and would definitely screw up running.

The 427mb reading you saw - was that just with the key on or with the engine running ? You should see approx 427mb at idle but with the key on and the engine not running it should read near 1000mb. That's a basic quick check for a MAP sensor.

If you're seeing that just with the key on and the engine not running that's a problem... with the key just on but not running do you get a change in the reading when you unplug the sensor ? Typically the reading would jump to maximum with the sensor unplugged, or about 1100mb.

The fact that you get a different fault code with the sensor unplugged does suggest that the signal wire has continuity, however it doesn't confirm that the wiring is correct - are the ECU and wiring loom both from the same car or were those also mix and match from different models ?

It would be worth checking that the pinouts are correct - on the Xantia V6 MAP sensor the pinouts are:

1 Signal
2 Ground
3 5 volts

If the 5v and Signal wires were somehow transposed due to mixing different ECU's and wiring looms it could explain a fixed reading of 427 that doesn't change with pressure but does change when you unplug the sensor - because the power input to the sensor would be connected to the signal wire loading it down. Unlikely, but worth checking.

Have you got one of those small screw driver style automotive test lights ? If so you could do the following:

Unplug the sensor, leave the key on, engine not running. Clip your earth to the engine chassis then test each of the three contacts in the plug to find which one lights it up - this should be pin 3. Although a multimeter would probably also show 5v on the signal line on pin 1 there won't be enough current to light the bulb, hence using the bulb test to confirm which is really the 5v supply.

While you watch the Lexia pressure reading touch your test bulb between engine chassis and pin 1 and see if the reading drops to a very low figure. If it does you've confirmed that the signal wire is working and wired to the correct pin on the plug. Repeat with the bulb connected between pins 1 and 2 and it should do the same - this confirms the ground wire is correct. Finally connect your bulb between 3 and 1 and the reading should either go high (over 1000) or stay high if it was already high. If that all works you've confirmed the ECU and wiring harness is correct.

Another test to try is to remove the MAP sensor from the manifold, leave it connected to the ECU, key on, engine not running, and push a couple of feet of rubber hose onto the nub so that you can suck on the end of the hose to manually generate a vacuum. If its working properly you should get a reading around 1000 when not sucking on it, but it should drop quite low as soon as you suck on it. You can also put a volt meter between pins 1 and 2 and see the voltage vary as you do this.

If THAT works ok then we've confirmed that the MAP sensor is in fact working and communicating to the ECU. If that's the case there are another two possibilities I can think of....

1) It could actually be a faulty TPS signal. The computer constantly checks for "coherence" between the MAP sensor, engine RPM and TPS opening percentage, as there is a fixed and predictable relationship between them which is stored in the ECU's map tables.

EG at 3000 rpm with the throttle open 20% the lookup table in the ECU tells it the manifold pressure should be within certain limits, say 300-400mb. If the pressure falls well outside this range it will set a fault code for the pressure sensor. You can see where I'm going with this right...? If the TPS is lying this can trigger a MAP sensor error because the two sensors are disagreeing with each other, but because it can't always figure out which one is lying often the MAP sensor gets the blame, when it could be the TPS indicating the wrong throttle percentage.

Have you done any tests/checks of the TPS yet ? It's fairly easy to do a rough test - key on engine off watch the throttle percentage and voltage as you operate the throttle through it's full range. It should be approx 0.6v with the throttle closed and about 4.6v with the throttle fully open and smoothly varying in between.

2) If the TPS checks out there is another possibility that is a little bit disturbing - the problem could be caused by a mismatch between the ECU and the engine itself. You say you've put a Xsara VTS engine into the car with a Peugeot 306 GTi ECU, are you sure those two engines are ABSOLUTELY identical in specs ? Is there ANY difference in CC, inlet manifold design, throttle plate design, ICV, anything like that in the induction system design which would affect the breathing of the engine ?

If that's the case it could well be your problem - because the MAP and TPS coherency checks will fail if the engine breathing characteristics are too different. It expects a certain MAP reading at a certain RPM and throttle opening, but if its a mechanically different engine the reading may fall outside the normal limits that the ECU is expecting, thus it throws up a fault code even though both sensors might be working fine and the engine might be mechanically fine. (but different in characteristics to what the ECU is programmed for) In that case you might have to find a proper matching ECU.

How well do you know the provenance of the ECU and where it came from ? Is it possible that whilst its the correct MODEL of ECU, its not from the correct engine ? The same model of ECU (eg Bosch MP7.0 on the Xantia V6) is used on a LOT of different engines - all the circuitry is the same but the programming and map tables are specific to that exact engine model. Same hardware, different software. It could potentially be the right model of ECU programmed for the WRONG engine...

Hopefully that gives you a few more things to check and try! :lol:
Simon

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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by DHallworth »

Hi Simon,

That's a great help, thank you!

Will have another fiddle with him when I see it again.

David.
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by c.morewood »

Sorry to Hijack this thread David. Did you sort your issues out?
I thought I'd continue this rather han start another as there's a lot of good advice from Simon on it.
I have an engine K light on, in limp mode, with a lexia fault of
Permanent Fault inlet manifold pressure sensor coherence with atmospheric pressure.
I've been trying to clear it this morning and succeed most of the time until I turn the engine on.
I've read your post above Simon and checked the TPS which seems to be operating properly.

Image

I've even connect an old MAF and got the same fault.

Image

The only difference is the temperature one MAF was on the warm engine the other was just laid on it.

The current air pressure should be about 991 mg. so quite why both are reading so high may be an indication of the fault. But I don't know enough about this to make a judgement.

I had wonderd if it might have been the old wiring loom with a broken wire.. seems to be happening in the doors now .. but this bit of the loom doesn't get distirbed very much.


Does this mean that the MAF has had it?
Chris
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by Mandrake »

What engine is it Chris ? And I assume the above were taken with the engine stopped since it says 0 rpm?? (If so how can there be an air flow and injection flow above zero...)
Simon

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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by c.morewood »

110 RHZ Simon yes the engine was stopped..and yes interesting isnt it?
Chris
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by c.morewood »

And would you believe it? This morning the light went out again!! I'll have to do some more investigation work.
Chris
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by c.morewood »

Having put up with an intermittent fault for a couple of weeks. I was up North this week and popped along to the local car recycling quarry, which until recently had 3 Xanita, but now is almost empty.. However I did manage to find an Hdi Xsara and relieve it of its MAF. On the assumption that it was working whe the car was scrapped I intend to replace my MAF with the scrap one to see if the symptoms are replicated and should therefore be able to either confirm or deny that my MAF is faulty and can proceed from there. But I find that the scrap MAF is a 5WK9623 and mine is a 5WK9621. They are identical in all other ways visually. Does anyone know if they are compatible on the RHZ 110HDi engine?
Thanks
Chris
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by c.morewood »

Latest news the only difference between the two is the fitting, the Xantia has the plate for the 2 screws to attach it to the airfilter box the Xsara fits with a rubber tube and two hose clamps.
Anyway the fault remains .. so I'm pretty sure its not the MAF.... more research needed
Chris
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by myglaren »

I have had a couple of MAFs fail and there was no warnings issued whatsoever - current one is failing by the looks of things, no boost until 3,000 revs :(
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by c.morewood »

Cant even get to 3000 RPM Steve, stuck in limp mode which is interesting trying to get up the hill to and from work..Do you need a spare to try?
Chris
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Re: MAF Sensor Issues...

Post by myglaren »

No, that's OK thanks Chris.
Although it is most likely the MAF it could possibly be an air leak or the EGR.
I will squirt some carb cleaner into it and if that doesn't do the trick hand it over to the Polish mechanical wizard who gets his hands dirty on my behalf - there's a whistle from somewhere that could be a failing idler that he can look into too. The two things may be related.

Fitted new bulbs in the nearside headlight yesterday, which is the extent of my involvement with it - amazed that it has required so little doing to it - jinxed it now of course :(
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