ZX occasional reluctance to start...

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RussellF97
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ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by RussellF97 »

1995 ZX 1.9D - 5-Door – Manual

New glowplugs March 2011 at 126289 miles.
Head gasket replaced April 2012 at 136424 miles.
Injectors serviced June 2012 at 139241 miles.
Mileage now 164469.

Every so often (sorry I can’t be more specific, it’s an irregular fault), when I try to start, it’s as if it’s running on three cylinders. There’s a fair-sized cloud of blue smoke out the back and it won’t idle. I have to keep it at about 1500rpm or it stalls.
When driving off, you can feel the fourth cylinder trying to kick in. After about 30 seconds or so, the last cylinder decides to join in with the others and then all is well until it does it again. It’s always the first start of the day, but it can be days or weeks between it happening.
The car doesn't get used every day, sometimes only about twice a week, but that doesn't seem to have any bearing on the problem because I can jump in after it's been standing for several days and it starts OK. Sometimes it will do it the day after it's been used.
My first thought was a glowplug, given the age & mileage on them. Although in my experience, once they fail, they stay failed – but has anyone known them to fail intermittently..?

Any ideas anyone…?
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
Sl4yer
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Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by Sl4yer »

Hi Phil.

Not sure what pump the D has (the TD could be fitted with Lucas or Bosch).

On the TD, the injector leak-off pipes could harden, which on the Bosch pump would allow air in causing a misfire - could this be the case here?

James
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Xantidote
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Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by Xantidote »

Well, the glowplugs have done 38k, and it's IMHO quite possible that 1 is not performing correctly. Worth checking the volts on the busbar, and (ideally) the current draw on each, though the latter can be a bit fiddly. Ultimately the only way to test a GP is to whip it out and test it on the bench (you are looking for a red hot tip - careful how you handle it afterwards).

Maybe a cylinder is not performing quite as well as the others for some reason? My TD on 189k sometimes starts more instantaneously than other times, accompanied by lumpiness & grey smoke, but it all clears within very short space of time (maybe 15-30 seconds?).
Martin

1995 Xantia TDLX (deceased :( )
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RussellF97
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Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by RussellF97 »

Thanks Sl4yer & Xantidote:

It's fitted with a Lucas pump (non-armoured). I'll be giving the little devil a looking at this weekend, so if I find anything I can point to with any degree of confidence, I'll let you know.
Phil

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RussellF97
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Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by RussellF97 »

OK, I've done the cheap and easy stuff. The leak-off pipes were replaced, and when I removed and tested the glowplugs, they were working as Beru intended so they went back in. Cleaning the glow plug relay connections brought the resistance down half an ohm so it's now the same between the battery and the relay as the relay to the bus bar.
When I took the glow plugs out, the lead from the glow plug relay was loose where it joins the glow plug bus, but no such luck, it's still a b*gg*r to start. Once it's been running for a couple of minutes, it's fine, and once it's been started it's OK for the rest of the day and it goes like a good'un.
So logically, it's something that happens only on start up. Would air ingress cause a moderately-sized cloud of blue smoke? The only time it's behaved like that before is when the injectors needed servicing.
It's iffy starting every time now. Once it's going, if you keep it at about 1300-1500 rpm, no problem. Any less than about 1200 rpm and it tries to cut out.
I might try giving it a drink of Redex to see if that improves things.

Stand by for the next thrilling instalment... :cry:
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
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RussellF97
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1995 Citroen ZX Elation 1.9D. Gone but not forgotten
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Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by RussellF97 »

Of course, it started more or less OK this morning. :?
Out of interest, I checked the initial battery voltage (12.85), the voltage with the glow plugs energised (11.5), and the voltage at the glow plug bus bar (9.5).
It seems quite a drop across about three feet of wire; methinks the glow plug relay isn't all it could be? Unfortunately, I don't have a hefty enough ammeter to check the current draw. I'll have to scour fleabay for one.
Phil

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Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by Xantidote »

RussellF97 wrote:It seems quite a drop across about three feet of wire; methinks the glow plug relay isn't all it could be?


defo something not right IMHO.

On my previous BX DTR Turbo, I was able to get inside the GP relay and clean up the points. Not sure if you can do this on the Xantia TD.

Another possibility is that the 3' cable linking the relay to the busbar is no longer up to it. Or more likely, one of the cable's crimped terminals is no longer up to it, maybe a bit of corrosion.

I had a problem 2 years ago with the actual busbar itself. Turned out to be defective crimping of the ring terminal on GP No 2 (from nearside), to which I connect the feed cable from the relay (as opposed to No. 1 at the end which is where Citroen had fitted it). I find No. 2 glowplug is the easiest to get at, so whenever I suspect a GP problem, that's where I start, and I guess that over the years, regular removal of the terminal from No. 2 GP upset the crimping.

Thinking further, it could also be defective crimping of a GP terminal on the busbar itself. You wouldn't pick this up unless you did a current check with a heavy duty ammeter in the feed from the relay. Ammeter needs to be capable of > 80 amps which is what you can expect to see on first firing up the glowplugs
Martin

1995 Xantia TDLX (deceased :( )
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RussellF97
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Location: Today, I am mainly in Consett...
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1995 Citroen ZX Elation 1.9D. Gone but not forgotten
x 10

Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by RussellF97 »

Xantidote: I concur. Had a trawl through evilbay earlier and the prices of new relays went from a fairly reasonable £35.99 to a stratospheric £105. :shock:
Tomorrow, I will mainly be trying to get the GP relay apart then. I've had a good look at the relay to bus lead and the bus itself and all seems to be OK visually, but I'm only going to try one thing at a time because I want to eventually say, 'A-ha, that's it!'

To be continued . . .
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
User avatar
RussellF97
Posts: 167
Joined: 11 Apr 2010, 08:33
Location: Today, I am mainly in Consett...
My Cars: 2012 Peugeot 207SW 1.6 Hdi
1995 Citroen ZX Elation 1.9D. Gone but not forgotten
x 10

Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by RussellF97 »

Bizarrely, after adjusting the idle speed, fast idle and anti-stall settings to what they should be (they were out), it now starts OK. [-o< So the taking apart of the glow plug relay will be for another day!
Phil

Indecision is the key to flexibility...
Xantidote
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Re: ZX occasional reluctance to start...

Post by Xantidote »

RussellF97 wrote:it now starts OK
Well done - all set for the winter
Martin

1995 Xantia TDLX (deceased :( )
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