Anyone want to buy...

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RichardW
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Anyone want to buy...

Post by RichardW »

....a C4 Picasso with an only slightly knackered engine :( :twisted: :roll:

Bowling along the M8 towards the airport this evening - BEEEP STOP low oil pressure. Oh spherical objects #-o Engine stalled on the hard shoulder and wouldn't re-start immediately, however, by the time the recovery wagon turned up it would start and run (without too much untoward noise!), however, when I put it in the drive there is limited brake assistance, so I suspect the sump strainer is blocked, and also there seems to be an inlet strainer to the vac pump so wonder if that is blocked starving it of oil - but it may be wrecked I guess. Going to drop the sump, clean out the strainer, take the vac pump off and have a look at it. See if I can get it running again, then it's getting punted. Done 7k since I fitted the new turbo (and oil pick up in the sump).
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Northern_Mike

Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by Northern_Mike »

Ouch. Sorry to hear that Richard.
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by Mandrake »

Oh crap. Not again! :( #-o

Gutted for you, especially after the good work on the timing belt and strut tops...

I guess you won't be chancing any more 1.6HDi's then... :evil:

Let me know if you need to borrow the Lexia...
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by KP »

At least if its just got some bottom end knock the shells aren't too much and can be done without pulling the engine out :)
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by RichardW »

It is a tad annoying.... :lol:

Having reflected on it a bit, it took 7k miles to block it up, so it should go another 3-5k before it happens again - it seems to run OK, it does sound a bit 'knocky' at idle, but can live with that, and that may well be reduced with new oil and the strainer cleaned out! Ultimately it will do it again, so the engine is essentially scrap :cry: However, plan is to get the strainer cleaned out, and sort the vac pump (which doesn't look that hard to get to - and I suspect may just be suffering a lack of oil flow causing it to not make vacuum, and new ones can he had for <£50 on the bay) to get it up and running again, then we can use it for local stuff, whilst I consider what to do with it. Replacement engines seem to £6-700 on the bay - although I wouldn't buy one without seeing it, and checking there was no injector blowby and that the turbo filter was clean. Looks like the engine will come out the front without too much bother(*) - although not I suspect without draining down the AC. I might unload it once it is running, but I suspect the cost to change makes that unattractive, and after all it's ONLY the engine that is FUBAR.... :-D

I would buy another 1.6 HDi - but only if it had MD service history, and no injector blowby. After 2011 they changed to an 8V design, which seems to be better from the sludging respect. My 307, which was dealer serviced, is fine at 86k (grab hard on nearest bit of wood), and the turbo filter was completely clean when I took it out. I am hoping it continues to be a good un..... [-o<

* I have clearly been reading comments from CitroJim for too long :P
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by Mandrake »

It's a shame you need to do such a high mileage.

If you didn't I'd be inclined to take a break from diesel engines for a while (at least on one car!) and get yourself a nice simple, reliable petrol engine, with no turbo, vacuum pump, high pressure injectors, high pressure fuel pump, DPF etc... :lol:

Or perhaps a Red LPG'ed V6 that can do 48MPG... ;) :twisted:
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by bxzx16v »

Sorry to hear of your problems Richard, I've got a 107k 1.6hdi berlingo which has been serviced by burnt tree leasing at 10/12k intervals. It's strange how some suffer and some don't? A friend had a 307 1.6hdi with 130k on with no problems whatsoever.

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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by RichardW »

Indeed.... it does seem to be associated with injector blowby - the C4 has a leak from No 3....

I'm thinking that as it built up over 7k miles, chances are it's caught more than it's put in, so if it goes on a diet of 5k oil changes - with the sump off and pick up cleaned at each change :roll: it might keep going for a good while - a reasonable possibility that it may reduce to only needing the sump off every 2nd or 3rd change :lol: I have new oil waiting to go in as I am aiming for 6 monthly changes now, just haven't had time to do it - got to now!
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by RichardW »

Stripped it down this afternoon. Sure enough the sump strainer and the vac pump filter (which is even finer than the sump strainer) were blocked. Vac pump is not that clear, but it's inside the brass ring top left of the pump.

Image

Cleaned them out, put it back together, started up, sounds OK once oil pressure came up, but still no brake assistance. Hmm, took the vac pump back off (it's remarkably easy!), and took the top cover off, to be greeted with this:

Image

Which I think might be beyond repair, just :-D =D> I challenge WFA to fix that..... =P~

Not too bad, only £50 on the bay - might see if anywhere is open tomorrow to get a new one though so we can use it again.

I wonder in fact if the vac pump destroying itself has deposited all the junk in the sump that's caused the sump strainer to block. No warning that the pump was away though - no loss of power or anything :?
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by Mandrake »

Quite staggering. :shock:

What is the composition of the solid lumps ? Is it just clumps of carbon or is it actual metallic debris ?

Does anyone really know for sure yet what the root cause of the contamination is with these engines ? :?

You sound hopeful that no damage has been done to the engine yet due to low oil pressure ? [-o<
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by Lighty »

I have found that the only cure for this is to rip the sump strainer completely out, I have two customers cars with this done, just like yours, since pulling out the gauze , there has been no further problems. You can't expect customers to pay for sump removal every 6 months .
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by citroenc5mad »

Is the sump removal a hard task todo, as I'm thinking about doing this when the oil needs changing and wondered how much work is involved and is there and seals that need replacing if its removed.
And the pick up is this located at the bottom of the sump.

Dan
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by RichardW »

@Simon - I'll get a better pic - there are some metal pieces that are well melted! There is also a lot of particles similar to those found in the sump strainer. I have a theory forming that the vac pump is in fact the SOURCE of all the trouble. It is literally stuffed with the particles, and yet the oil supply comes from a drilling in the head that is only about 2mm, and there is a filter on the inlet. So, where did all the junk come from? Well, can only be the vac pump can't it? The outlet goes straight into the cam box, and then presumably the sump - which possibly leads to a vicious circle - vac pump is shedding particles, which in turn are blocking the inlet filter, which is starving the pump, which is making it shed more particles...

I would suggest that anyone with a 1.6 checks the state of the vac pump.... another job to do on the 307!

@ Lighty - good idea! It's a bit of a faff having to take the sump off each oil change... will see how it looks on the vac pump inlet in a few 00 miles.

@citroenc5mad - it's not too bad. Drain the oil, remove 12 or so 8mm bolts and 2 10mm nuts (there may be 2 nuts on the stud at the cam belt end, and on the C4 the water pipe is clipped to it. Now unscrew the 2 studs (using an E5 spline socket) carefully, and these will pull the sump off. It can then be manipulated out from behind the exhaust (the flywheel end stud needs to be fully unscrewed). The oil pick up is then clearly visible in the centre of the engine, and can be removed by unscrewing the 3 T25 torx bolts. There is no gasket - the sump is sealed with RTV silicone - you need to scrape all this off (nightmare!) then put new on to put the sump back. It's possible to do it with exhaust / DPF in place, but a couple of the bolts around the DPF are awkward to get at.
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by Mandrake »

Just thinking about how some people have said that the Ford version of the engine doesn't seem to have the same high failure rate - does it use the same vacuum pump design ?
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Re: Anyone want to buy...

Post by Northern_Mike »

I'm sure I read somewhere (on here?) that even on some PSA versions of the engine, the sump is deeper and the oil capacity is greater, which leads to the crud sinking down out of the reach of the oil pickup. Is that true, or have I dreamt it?
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