2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

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Wings
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2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Wings »

My first post. Having been sold a 2003 3.0 V6 C5 estate with a dodgy auto box. will a low miles box from a 2001 model with same engine fit my 2003. If engine also available would it be easier to swap engine and box without splitting. How much re-programming will be necessary? Thanks in advance.
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by CitroJim »

Welcome Wings..

Yes, gearboxes will be swappable but be aware you will need a Lexia to re-initialise the gearbox ECU to the replacement 'box. If you do not complete this step the new 'box will remain in emergency hydraulic mode and will appear to be stuck in third gear.

You could, alternatively, rebuild and overhaul what you have. Easier than it looks. Have a look at this website.

What is the problem with your present gearbox? It may not be terminal.

EDIT: If you do swap 'boxes then rebuild and overhaul the replacement before fitting. All HP20s have a 'timebomb' in them and have a finite life due to the torque converter lock-up clutch failing and subsequent plugging of the internal oil filter. Any HP20 that has covered more than about 140,000 miles is getting into a 'twilight zone' and may fail at any time. It's a rare HP20 that lives much beyond 160,000 miles. A new oil filter and torque converter overhaul by a specialist will see the 'box as good as new and good for another 100,000 miles.
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Wings »

Dear Jim,
Thank you so much for your reply which has encouraged me a lot.
My gearbox is erratic, seems to work well enough above 40mph. The problem seems to occur between 20mph and 30mph with gentle acceleration up a slope, it surges, revs varying about 200rpm the speed of the car not changing in response. Most gear changes seem smooth, I can't tell which gear she has selected, but occasionally they are clunky. Most particularly engaging reverse and also when coming to an sharp stop. ZF manual talks about 3rd hydraulic causing this noise selecting reverse, however all gears can be selected and work best in tiptronic. My car is most definitely in what you describe as the twilight zone, having done 127000 miles. I have taken the car into Exeter Gearbox Centre who charged £72 to code read and test. There are no faults indicted. They recommend remove transmission and strip to assess damage and recondition as needed, for which they propose a charge of £2600. I don't think they need my business!!!

I was seduced into purchasing the car, which I love, by the promise of fairly cheap motoring. She is converted to LPG. I paid £900 which at the time I thought was a bargain!! Caveat Emptor!! Other faults include faint clonk from transmission -- transaxle? and noisy lifters on start up from cold. Now that I need to fix not such a great bargain! However, what prompted this post was that I have seen a low miles (80k) C5 at £600. Same engine and gearbox. I am thinking of swapping the complete engine transmission unit, OR just the gearbox. I am not too worried about the hydraulic tappets, so perhaps gearbox and transmission would see me right. I imagine that changing the engine would pose more of an electronic problem Coded ECU radio etc and if you recommend overhauling the gearbox, in any event a split will be necessary.
This seeming overreaction to events is prompted by the outrageous charges of the local gearbox "specialist", and the general overcharging of the motor trade in Marsh Barton, Exeter. I am considering Bristol, or JT automatics in Dartford. Are there any engineers that you could recommend ?

In the meantime I am having an oil change and wondering about an additive called DR TRANNY. Your thoughts would be most appreciated.
Thanks again.
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by CitroJim »

A fluid change is always a good idea. In fact it's the very first thing to do in the case of any automatic problem.

I'd caution against the use of any additive except as a very last ditch option when all else fails. Also, do make certain you are using the right fluid. You MUST use only Esso/Mobil LT71141 and absolutely nothing else. Don't even use fluid that describes itself as compatible with LT. It isn't. And definitely don't use any fluid based on Dexron.

Look at the old fluid as it comes out. New fluid is light straw coloured and used fluid will be a few shades darker but should not be black.

A dark black fluid indicates problems.

Also, smell the old fluid but smell the new first to get a reference. It smalls horrid. Like cat's pee crossed with slightly scorched toast. The old fluid should smell about the same and again, a fluid that smells badly burned is a worry.

Fluid changes are not easy as the box is supposedly sealed for life. Refilling is via the breather hole.

I can supply you full instructions but it's a big PDF and I'll need your email address...
Jim

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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Wings »

Jim, Thanks again. Going to get the first drain done tomorrow. I have downloaded a PDF to help the "farriers", I understand it should be drained at least twice to dilute the old oil. Got the LT71141 on e bay. Let you know if it's any better. Regards,Ted
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Chris570 »

If you get annoyed with the car and want to sell it let me know, I've been hankering (quietly) after a c5 v6 estate for a little while.
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by CitroJim »

Wings wrote:I understand it should be drained at least twice to dilute the old oil.
That's right Ted, total capacity of the 'box is getting on for 9 litres but a good drain will only get 5 litres out. The rest is trapped in the torque converter..

Another thing worth doing is to get someone local with a Lexia diagnostic to carry out a re-initialisation of the auto-adaptives. This can often make a difference as it starts the relationship between 'box and ECU from afresh.

There's a list of Lexia owners on here who are happy to do the necessary, either for free or a very small number of portraits of the queen...

I'll be most interested to hear of how it goes :-D
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Wings »

So far a marginal improvement. Now working pretty well in tiptronic. Another oil change and addition of lubeguard platinum this week will let you know how it goes after that. By the way I have had the front wheels balanced but am still getting some vibration above 60mph is it worth having an "onload" balance? I do like the car and am aiming to get it right.
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Mandrake »

If the oil is really black it will take at least 3, maybe even 4 changes (spaced out with a hundred miles or more of driving in between to allow time for it to mix) to get the oil clean again.

See the following for an example:

Image
The first test tube was the oil drained the first time, the second one, the second drain etc. The last one on the right was new unused oil, so you can see after four drains even the horribly black oil I started with was approaching clean oil. (Given that the oil in the box after the fourth change would be 50% cleaner again than what came out during the fourth drain)

Also I would caution you against using Lubeguard platinum in a 4HP20 together with LT71141 oil. I did this on mine as a last resort for what has since proved to be box that is now at the end of its tether and getting ready to fail for real now. It did help reverse the symptoms and make it last another 6000 miles beyond what I already thought was the end of the line for the box to be fair.

Lubegard platinum has friction modifiers in it which supposedly convert a non friction modified oil such as Dexron III into a formulation which is similar to a friction modified oil such as LT71141. (So in theory you could add it to Dexron III and use it in the box instead of LT71141, however I would not recommend trying it!)

However if you add Lubegard platinum to LT71141 then you effectively have two doses of friction modifiers in the oil which will put the oil out of spec and may cause slipping of already worn clutches. The extra friction modifiers can help alleviate torque converter clutch shudder and make the changes smoother - and in fact did on mine for a few thousand miles, but it's not a permanent fix because if you have torque converter clutch shudder then the clutch is nearly worn out anyway.

If you want to use Lubegard I would strongly suggest the RED formulation of Lubegard, which has most of the other ingredients like the ester based base oils but does NOT include any additional friction modifiers, thus won't change the basic frictional characteristics of the LT71141 and for that reason is a more conservative choice than the platinum version with the extra friction modifiers. The Red version should be safe to use but at your own risk of course...

Personally, if you saw an improvement from one plain oil change, I would try two more spaced out plain oil changes (and capture samples as above to see your progress) before considering an additive. I didn't see any improvement of symptoms on my first oil change but after the 2nd and 3rd my gearbox ran much better for many thousands of miles.

If the oil is as black as my example above, you have to ask yourself why - it's either never had an oil change (quite possible) or the box is overheating and burning the oil, perhaps due to a blocked oil heat exchanger. (I'm beginning to think this is what happened to mine) If the oil is overheating any improvements from oil changes will not be permanent as the oil will quickly get burnt again.
Simon

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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by CitroJim »

Wings, pleased to hear of some improvement. Do as Simon says as he's very knowledgeable of the subject.

Do do as Simon says and check the cooler as my first V6, on which I cut my 4HP20 teeth, may have killed its gearbox due to a blocked cooler. Basically the car had a water leak and lots of rad seal was dumped into the cooling system. It didn't cure the leak but it did block the transmission cooler and very likely was a contributory factor in the death of the gearbox.

I learned on that 'box how to sort them and if you want a long read it's all documented on here...
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote: I learned on that 'box how to sort them and if you want a long read it's all documented on here...
A very interesting read Jim - pity that most of the images are now broken links! :(
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote: A very interesting read Jim - pity that most of the images are now broken links! :(
I'll have to check that Simon. It will have happened when I moved my web server from a Windows to a Linux server... Apache on Linux is case sensitive whereas IIS on Windows is not...
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Mandrake »

If you would Jim, without most of the pictures the thread is stripped of a lot of its context. There is a lot of good info in there if the pictures were also present...
Simon

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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by Wings »

Simon, thanks for your input. My oil out seemed very similar to yours. You refer to burning oil and slipping clutches, are the clutches within the torque converter or the gearbox itself. Just figuring whether it may be a new torque converter, or converter and complete gearbox overhaul that will soon be necessary. OFFTOPIC seems like Citroen are providing support to the Tour de France
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Re: 2001 C5 3.0 V6 auto box into 2003 C5 3.0 V6

Post by CitroJim »

The one that goes first is in the torque converter Wings. The lock-up clutch. It breaks up and fragments of it contaminate the oil and block the internal oil filter so the rule is to have the torque converter overhauled and then overhaul the 'box. Caught early all that's normally needed is a new oil filter and a seal/gasket set.

Sadly the box has to come right apart to replace the filter.
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