Xantia 1.9Td timing issues.....

[sparksie]

Hmm
Not sure I understand all these special tools you guys are making for timing the 1.9XUD.
Must be something unique to the Citroen application, which I'll doubtless discover when I finally get around to doing Cit's belt.
In any of the many Pugs I've done it's been simple to find the timing holes, assuming the timing is correct to begin with.
Pick a pulley that's easy to see and pin it. Once the cam, or pump, is pinned, then by definition the flywheel and the other pulley are in the right place, or VERY close to it.
Reaching through the hole with a long allen key/screwdriver/bar or whatever is handy and smaller diameter than the hole, will easily locate the hole and can be used to gently lever it into the exact position for the pin to fit.
Of course, if the timing has been lost, then that's a whole other story...
I do recall the Xantia being a bit more cluttered down there than most, but it still didn't strike me as a nightmare. I've been down there a bit popping linkages back together and customising 206 ones to fit and haven't lost a digit yet.
Timing belt coming up soon, though, so I'll have direct experience of it soon enough!
Looks as though I'll be doing it without access to a pit, as well.
Going to have to save up for a lift, I think, but that'll be too late for this one.

[Old-Guy]

She's still pretty sluggish on the hills but i'm making the assumption that after 192k most of her get up and go has gotten up and gone...

A common cause of lost get-up-and-go is a split in the boost pressure sense pipe; this goes to the 'star-ship' on top of the Bosch pump from the black plastic turbo-to-intercooler pipe. There's no air flow in this fairly small pipe so quite a small split results in a big loss of pressure. Low boost pressure results in significant under-fuelling. The usual give-away is oil in the neighbourhood of the rubber joiner on the inlet manifold - the pipe splits on the underside of the bend and sprays oil mist in the general direction of the joiner. The split can be felt if you know where and what to feel for. No need to buy the Citroen pipe (even if your local dealer can work out what it is on this particularly misleading parts drawing), you just need a length of 6mm (IIRC) fuel-proof pipe and a couple of jubillee clips to fit.

...assuming the timing is correct to begin with.
Pick a pulley that's easy to see and pin it. Once the cam, or pump, is pinned, then by definition the flywheel and the other pulley are in the right place, or VERY close to it.
Reaching through the hole with a long allen key/screwdriver/bar or whatever is handy and smaller diameter than the hole, will easily locate the hole and can be used to gently lever it into the exact position for the pin to fit.
Of course, if the timing has been lost, then that's a whole other story...

Just so. But that's where the problem lies. IF the timing is only slightly out, the crankcase and flywheel holes don't align. Citroen have foreseen this problem and provide an alignment at the pulley end. With the auxiliary pulley off (necessary to remove the lower cambelt case) the woodruff key, corresponding cambelt tooth and a circle in the alloy casting (crankshaft oil seal housing?) exactly align at TDC as in this photo.

[citronut]

i have never noticed that circle in the alloy casting before, but i do align the rear face of the woodruf key to the front face of that raised square block just above the crank sprocket,

[citronut]

Hmm
Not sure I understand all these special tools you guys are making for timing the 1.9XUD.
Must be something unique to the Citroen application, which I'll doubtless discover when I finally get around to doing Cit's belt.
In any of the many Pugs I've done it's been simple to find the timing holes, assuming the timing is correct to begin with.

the citroens are exactly the same as the pugs in this department,
as im sure you already know

[sparksie]

the Citroëns are exactly the same as the pugs in this department,
as im sure you already know

Well, I thought the whole powertrain was the same, only to discover the pressure plate and release bearing are not, despite everything on either side of them being familiar Pug items!
It wouldn't surprise me in the least to discover there are obstructions blocking access that simply don't exist on Peugeots, like the hideous cable & pipe tray on top of the gearbox!
I've always liked these engines, because the pulleys are properly located on the shafts, meaning any mistiming will have to be by one tooth and one trough at the very least. This is almost half an inch and can readily be seen by an experienced eye.
Some engines, like Ford XLDs, have the cam pulleys on a taper and mistiming can be by fractions of a tooth and only detectable by using the full locking/timing kit! Of course most workshops (including Ford's own) don't actually follow the directions about breaking the taper on the camshafts

[citronut]

i think you will find even the clutch kits are interchangeable between cit and pug, even if they might have different part No.s,

the pipe/cable tray is probably the worst bit on a XANT whilst doing a clutch job,
i find the rest quite a lot easier to do than the pug equivalent,
because you just depressurise the suspension, and this makes it a lot easier to split the suspension,

the only timing tools i have for these is three 8mm ( shank ) bolts and a length of 3/16th kunifer bent to the appropriate shape to go up behind the starter
( from below ) and into the peg hole,

the reason for kunifer is if by chance you forget to remove it before cranking the engine, you can still yank it ooooot

[Old-Guy]

i have never noticed that circle in the alloy casting before, but i do align the rear face of the woodruf key to the front face of that raised square block just above the crank sprocket,

It's only visible if you clean off the crud first! Seriously, I'd never noticed it before and only having experience of the Green Lady, it may be a less visible on other engines, but it will be there as the mark is left by an ejector pin in the die-casting die. I only found it when needing to re-time - I figured PSA must have provided some reasonably simple way of getting the timing good-enough to be able to see at least part of the flywheel hole through the crank-case hole.

As an aside, I used to cuss the designers for using every possible size of nut and bolt head. The more I work on the XUD engine, the more admiration I have for the designers - different sized heads make it easy to identify which fastener is which: "...the only 12mm head on..." etc.

[sparksie]

i think you will find even the clutch kits are interchangeable between cit and pug, even if they might have different part No.s,

You may be right. I didn't get to experiment, but they are certainly not the same. Peugeot use old fashioned push-to-release pressure plates, while (so I'm told) Citroen use pull-to-release, despite using the same gearbox, release arm, fork, all strapped to the same block and flywheel.
It's different purely for the sake of being different, as far as I can see. They had to use a contraption worthy of Heath/Robinson to make the cable work in reverse, too.
I was on the point of trying to modify it to Peugeot spec, because I had a full Pug clutch kit on the shelf, but in the end my problem turned out not to be within the bell-housing, so I didn't get to try it.
When I suggested it on here, the idea got a very cool reception, so it may not be possible...

[citronut]

Peugeots do use the pull/back to front clutch on there equivalent models, the TD's do and the N/A's do not,

once you get familiar with the trick to dismantle and re/assemble this type of clutch , it aint that bad/hard,

the main trick is you must remove the clutch actuating are from the fork spindle, this alows the spindle to rotate as you pull the box away, in turn alowing the fork fingers to clear the thrust bearing, and the revese on re/entry

[sparksie]

Wow!
I didn't know that!
Though I don't think it's a hard and fast rule, or I'd certainly have come across more of them than I have, with XUDs being so popular over here!
My own 406 was a Turbo and had a standard pressure plate, not that I ever had to do a clutch on it, but I did have the engine out before I scrapped it.
We also had a Dispatch that, on reflection, based on the struggle to remove the gearbox, I suspect may have had the inside-out plate and fixed bearing. I was away when the guys finally butchered it apart and it was back together and gone by the time I returned, so I can't be sure...

[BGAston87]

You guys are all legendary! I did get it all done but i've saved this thread as a PDF in my Citroen folder for future reference.

[BGAston87]

197k.. my hdi is on 278k and is better then ever get up and go wise!!!

Are you taking samba to the talbot simca international show at Beaulieu in july??

I have to admit ignorance and say I wasn't even aware of that show. I think my show attendance will start next year proper because without a current MOT or tax disc looking hopeful until a couple of months time, I may be cutting it fine. Once i've got the necessaries i want to run the car for a while and work out the issues before i drive it halfway down the country. I will however be attending the september Autojumble with Macs Factors so if anyone is going there and would like a cuppa and a natter come and find me!