Mk1 Xantia Issues

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angle
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Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by angle »

So, this morning marks my entry into 'proper' Citroen ownership - a 1997 mk1 Xantia TD. Unfortunately it seems after the drive home that my 'quick lap around the estate as its on SORN' test drive probably wasn't as thorough as it needed to be, so I thought I should consult the FCF hive mind given how helpful you've been with issues with my sadly departed ZX in the past. Apologies if any of these have been covered ad nauseum before.

1. Fuel Gauge - now appears to not be a case of the previous owner selling with no diesel in the tank and actually appears to be dead. Any idea if this is more likely to be the tank sender, or given its a Citroen, dodgy dash electrics? Any easy way to test?

2. Brakes are pulsing, particularly noticeable on more gentle braking (rather than the emergency stops I was trying before I bought it). Its registered as a Temptation, badged as an LX, so no ABS? So, I'm assuming its something hydraulic, which is where the dread sets in.

3. On anything more than 90 degrees of steering lock there's a low squealing sound, potentially coming from the OS front. Not noticeable over the engine with the window open, but there with it closed. My first thought was to check the PAS fluid level, but obviously I'm not thinking Citroen. Based on some searching of the forum, do the last two problems suggest accumulator?

Any help gratefully appreciated.

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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

The first thing I would do is to check the LHM level. What you do is to park on level ground, move the height lever to service high, wait until things have stopped moving, leave the engine running, pop the bonnet open and look at the reservoir (near side, squarish black container). On the top is a small clear dome, with two red rings marked around it and an orange float in it. The orange disk (not the brass one) should be between the two red rings. If it is low that could cause some problems. Only use LHM or LHM+ fluid (don't go to Halfords, they charge twice the going rate for the stuff!). GSF (German Swedish French) sell LHM at about £7 per litre. If you do a Google search for GSF you should be able to find one local to you.

The PAS is driven directly from the pump, so the accumulator sphere is not going to be involved in the steering. However, it is involved in the braking. Can you hear a clicking noise from the accumulator sphere? If you can, what is the interval between clicks? Anything less than 30 seconds would suggest the accumulator sphere is low on pressure and needs replacing.

If you pop up the last 8 digits of the VIN number (usually on the right wing bonnet lip) somebody with the right access can tell you what your car left the factory with. It is possible it has ABS, but this would be confirmed via the lookup.

If you need to bleed the brakes (if the LHM has dropped too low then air will have got into the system) this post could help;

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 22&t=24595" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by Xaccers »

The first thing to do is realise that the hydraulic system is very very simple. The only really bad things to go wrong that you are likely to experience is a rusted through metal pipe and that is only really an issue due to being unable to drive the car to get it sorted.
The pump provides direct pressure for the power steering and separately pressure to the suspension and brakes.
The spheres are just balloons of nitrogen giving you the lovely ride. Yours is a LX so you have 4 corner spheres and two accumulators (the one at the back is known as the anti sink sphere).
The accumulators provide a backup store of pressure in case the pump stops turning so you still have brakes.
Ride height has nothing to do with the spheres, it is controlled by the amount of fluid sent to the struts which depends on the height corrector linkages being well lubed.
The brake lines are the only dead ends in the system so if air gets in they'll need bleeding.
Also if your accumulators are flat then as you brake you are relying on the pump alone.
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by wurlycorner »

Where are you Mark? A local member may be able to take a look at the car for you and let you know what they think it is?
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by Mandrake »

angle wrote: 1. Fuel Gauge - now appears to not be a case of the previous owner selling with no diesel in the tank and actually appears to be dead. Any idea if this is more likely to be the tank sender, or given its a Citroen, dodgy dash electrics? Any easy way to test?
If you have a multimeter you can measure the resistance of the tank sender at the top of the fuel pump assembly - you can access it by tilting the squabs on the rear seats up, lifting the carpet on the drivers side (you might have to lift a couple of plastic whatsits first) then popping out the round bung in the floor to reveal the top of the pump. The fuel gauge sender is the outer two thinner wires. Disconnect the plug and measure the two contacts that the thin wires were going to.

An empty tank should read about 350 ohms, a full tank about 50 ohms, and a partially full tank somewhere in between. These figures were from the spare fuel pump I have for my petrol Xantia, but I can't imagine they'd use a different fuel gauge circuit for Diesel cars. If the reading is somewhere between these two figures the fault will either be wiring or in the dashboard, if the reading is above 350 ohms the fault will be in the sender in the tank.
2. Brakes are pulsing, particularly noticeable on more gentle braking (rather than the emergency stops I was trying before I bought it). Its registered as a Temptation, badged as an LX, so no ABS? So, I'm assuming its something hydraulic, which is where the dread sets in.
Is it a slow pulsing/lurching or is it more like a slight shudder/vibration only at higher speeds which feels a bit like a wheel imbalance ?

If its a slow pulsing that occurs the same pretty much regardless of road speed you probably just need a new accumulator sphere fitting, which isn't difficult. Or it could be the brakes need bleeding as a lot of air in the lines can sometimes cause an oscillation.

If its a rapid but gentle vibration matched to the road speed that you notice when braking lightly at higher speeds, say 60mph then its more likely to be a front disc that is slightly warped - I intermittently notice a slight vibration with very light braking at motorway speeds, but nothing during hard braking or at slower speeds. I haven't investigated yet but I'm pretty sure it will turn out to be a front disc that is slightly warped.
3. On anything more than 90 degrees of steering lock there's a low squealing sound, potentially coming from the OS front. Not noticeable over the engine with the window open, but there with it closed. My first thought was to check the PAS fluid level, but obviously I'm not thinking Citroen. Based on some searching of the forum, do the last two problems suggest accumulator?
On any Xantia from 1994 onwards the accumulator sphere has nothing to do with the power steering - only suspension and brakes. Squealing when putting the power steering under load is almost certainly a slipping auxiliary/serpentine belt, as the power steering puts as much as a 5 HP load on the belt when turning the steering against a load like stationary tires. Checking the aux belt tension would be the first step but you may find the belt is well worn and needs replacing...
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by citroenxm »

Tank Senders ARE VERY reliable. Its litterally a Wiper and Resister...

The dead guage will be in the clocks! The guage is NOT directly connected to the level sender!! Beleve it or not, theres a small curcuit board between the sender and guage.

Behind the speedo inside the binnicle, theres a small circuit board that drives the guage. Its likely this will be dead!

Remove the clocks from the car, open up the clocks and replace the cuircuit board with another!!

Really! It will be, I will be VERY suprised if its the level sender, but everyone ALWAYS goes for it first.

Shoot me down if it is the level sender however...
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by CitroJim »

citroenxm wrote:Tank Senders ARE VERY reliable. Its litterally a Wiper and Resister...
Yes, generally all they do is cause the gauge to be wildly inaccurate..

You should be able to test by earthing the sender wire and seeing the gauge read full if the gauge and associated wiring is OK.

If need be, I can supply wiring diagrams to assist with diagnosis and fixing...
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by citroenxm »

CitroJim wrote:
citroenxm wrote:Tank Senders ARE VERY reliable. Its litterally a Wiper and Resister...
Yes, generally all they do is cause the gauge to be wildly inaccurate..

You should be able to test by earthing the sender wire and seeing the gauge read full if the gauge and associated wiring is OK.

If need be, I can supply wiring diagrams to assist with diagnosis and fixing...
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by Old-Guy »

On a newly acquired Xantia, two things that need checking immediately:
1. LHM level (service HIGH is the height control lever between the seats fully back) on a reasonably level surface with the engine running and wait at least 30 seconds.
2. The auxiliary drive belt (alternator, hydraulic pump and A/C compressor). If it slips you'll lose both electrical power and hydraulic pressure. If it shreds, they have a nasty habit of getting under the cambelt = trashed engine!). If in doubt, fit a new one and make sure you get the correct length.

Your aux drive belt is slipping, that's why the PAS is struggling and the belt id squealing.

Pulsing brakes can by caused by any one or combination of low LHM, air in brake lines (Bleed), slipping aux belt.

Another little job that will improve the hydraulics is to clean the filters (in the reservoir).

As CitroenXM says - Xantia hydraulics are simple. In fact, despite the maze of pipes (which usually give little trouble) the design is a brilliant piece of lateral thinking. The brakes are powered from the hydraulic suspension circuits (front and back) thus making the brakes inherently load sensitive. There are no dampers, the springs weight nothing (nitrogen gas), the dual hydraulic pump powers steering on one circuit, and suspension and brakes on the other. Simple valves operated from the mid-point of the anti-roll bars provide automatic self-levelling suspension. No brake servo or vacuum pump. Very effective hand-brake on front discs. Oh, and if your's has a sunroof, it's far less likely to rot around the base of the 'C' pillars.

I'm scrapping a MK1 so if there are any odd bits of trim etc missing/broken, let me know PDQ - otherwise they'll go in the crusher. :shock:
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by citroenxm »

Old-Guy wrote:
As CitroenXM says - Xantia hydraulics are simple. In fact, despite the maze of pipes (which usually give little trouble) the design is a brilliant piece of lateral thinking. The brakes are powered from the hydraulic suspension circuits (front and back) thus making the brakes inherently load sensitive. There are no dampers, the springs weight nothing (nitrogen gas), the dual hydraulic pump powers steering on one circuit, and suspension and brakes on the other. Simple valves operated from the mid-point of the anti-roll bars provide automatic self-levelling suspension. No brake servo or vacuum pump. Very effective hand-brake on front discs. Oh, and if your's has a sunroof, it's far less likely to rot around the base of the 'C' pillars.

I'm scrapping a MK1 so if there are any odd bits of trim etc missing/broken, let me know PDQ - otherwise they'll go in the crusher. :shock:
On this occasion, it was Xac who said they are simple, which in reality they ARE once you sit for 5 mins and think about the operation!

KEEP your speedo Clocks Guy, he WILL need them for the Fuel level to work... :wink:
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by Old-Guy »

OOPs :oops:

Good point. Just added instrument panel to list of bits to remove. Just wish there were a few more daylight hours in the day!
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by angle »

Thank you everyone - this is why I like it here. :) So - LHM levels were checked, but given it was in precisely the right place between the two lines I assumed I was looking at the brass ring rather than the orange float, which is above both. Too much LHM?

Aux belt / tensioner - is what I thought it would be, and having had a quick look under the bonnet in the light definitely seems to be the culprit. As per Old-Guy's post, is that going to be a likely candidate for brakes as well? It doesn't feel like a problem with discs, the pulsing is too slow for that, more like someone trying to cadence brake. It really didn't occur to me that the two could be linked.

Old-Guy - thank you for the offer of bits, especially as I'm only in Bristol. Off the top of my head, I need the top grille chevron, some rear headrests and as has been set, potentially the clocks, although I've been looking for an excuse to buy a multimeter so will give the sender a looking at.

**Edited to say - provided I was timing the right noise (which given my successes so far doesn't necessarily seem a given, but halfway between a click and a clunk from the front of the engine) the regulator was fairly consistent at 45s between ticks, which I took to be not brilliant but not an imminent problem...
Last edited by angle on 24 Apr 2014, 06:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Too much LHM is better than not enough, as you won't get air drawn into the system (barring any leaks). If you lower the car to service low you might get some LHM overflow out of the reservoir.

What is the time intervals between the regulator ticks? If it is less than 30 seconds the accumulator sphere needs to be replaced and, as it does not give any indications it is on the way out, the anti sink sphere as well (most people swap them at the same time). It shouldn't cost more than £60 for the pair. While the main task of the accumulator sphere is to provide a pressure reserve should the pump fail, it also absorbs the pressure waves from said pump (a bit like the capacitors in a good PSU), so if the sphere is no longer up to the job those same pressure waves can cause damage.

The downside to swapping out the clocks is that you have to take the steering wheel off (as you have a Mk1 Xantia). You will need (amongst other tools) a Torx T50 bit. The Haynes BoL is (for a change) accurate on doing this.
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by citroenxm »

NO you WONT need a Torx 50 bit. you will need a T30 to get the air bag off, and a 22mm Socket to get the wheel off!!
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Re: Mk1 Xantia Issues

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

OK, so it is the S2 Xantia that uses a T50 to hold the steering wheel on. I didn't know the S1 was different in that respect. My apologies.
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