ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
User avatar
tco_tm
Posts: 22
Joined: 21 Jan 2014, 12:32
Location: Poland
My Cars:

ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by tco_tm »

Hello,

What can be a reason of intermittent problems with ignition timing in 3.0 V6 ES9A engine (C5 II Break)? During acceleration there is a quite excessive power loss and ignition retardation after reaching 3000 rpm, which lasts until 5000 rpm. This behavior appears without regularity and is not canceled by switching off ignition or battery disconnection. Lexia does not show any errors. Readings of O2 sensors, throttle position and engine load during live OBD2 scan are normal. Only timing advance shows visible drop.

Spark plugs are new, problem does not depend on gasoline (RON-95 or -98). I have no idea how to check if there is a knock signal, but as far I can tell using my ear, engine does not knock.

I am not sure, so please do not take it as a clue, but I think it happens after a looot of driving with transmission set to "winter" mode, when car starts moving from second gear. Unfortunately, confirmation would take too much time, but I think when I was not using this option (it reduces fuel consumption, as I believe :P), I did not have this problem.

Regards,
Pawel
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10872
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 996

Re: ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by RichardW »

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 14&t=41273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a long read, and as yet un-resolved..... :roll:
Richard W
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8618
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 666

Re: ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by Mandrake »

Gosh Richard, that was a bit mean sending Pawel to a 113 page thread. :-D

Pawel - I'm really interested to get some more details from you, as Richard says, I've been battling with a similar problem for over a year now on my Xantia, although on the ES9J4 which is a much older version of the ES9 engine.

A quick summary of the 113 page thread (which talks about a lot of other stuff too) is that I'm also intermittently seeing the timing get retarded at lower RPM - mostly below about 2500 rpm, but sometimes as high as below 3500 rpm. This seems to be in response to knock sensor input. (which is the only thing which can really cause this)

Often disconnecting the battery for 10 minutes will return semi-normal performance for a period of time - maybe hours, days or weeks before performance drops again. At it's worst the engine has very poor torque below 2500 rpm and there is sometimes a sudden torque spike (increase) when exceeding 3500 rpm. I believe this spike in torque is because knock retard does not apply above 3500 rpm or has a much higher "threshold" of knock before retard is applied. Thus when a lot of knocking is occurring timing tends to get retarded only below 3500 rpm with no retard above 3500 rpm therefore a sudden increase in torque as you accelerate past 3500 rpm due to the sudden change in timing advance.

What you say about driving a lot in "winter" mode with the car starting in second gear also rings true with what I notice - I find the worst loss of torque is when trying to pick up in 2nd gear from low rpm, at its worst the engine is very lacking in torque in this range in 2nd gear. I too find that if the car is "lugged" a lot at low rpm in higher gears, and does a lot of pulling away from junctions from low rpm in second gear that the timing gets retarded a lot more easily than if I run the car in sport mode letting the engine rev but using less throttle to achieve the same acceleration.

In fact I've found that after a battery off reset I can drive in sport mode with very snappy performance for quite some time (maybe indefinitely) but if I let it lug in high gears at low rpm (normal gearbox mode) performance quickly starts to fall off.

In my case I believe the root cause of timing retard is the engine is actually knocking due to a lean mixture at WOT - I've left my scope on the oxygen sensor output voltage for a few weeks while driving and can see a lot of times when the mixture is lean under wide open throttle particularly below 2500 rpm, but even as high as 3000 rpm. As yet the cause for this has not been found even though a number of items such as fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, MAP sensor and TPS have been ruled out.

A lean mixture under heavy load will induce knocking in a high compression ratio engine such as these, enough time knocking forces the ECU to select a lower octane map even on high octane fuel and performance suffers. On my engine the ECU is very old so I can't get any knock sensor data from a lexia, nor fuel trim etc. I have had to look at ignition timing and oxygen sensor using a scope and can only guess what the fuel trims might be.

Can you have a look at the long term fuel trim numbers of your ECU at different rpm particularly in the trouble region and see what they are ? Do you see any sign of the O2 sensor reading constant lean when accelerating hard ? (it should always read rich under WOT at any RPM) Can you take some screen shots of the data available from the engine using the Lexia ?
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49620
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6182
Contact:

Re: ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote:Gosh Richard, that was a bit mean sending Pawel to a 113 page thread. :-D
I agree :lol:
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Miguel

Re: ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by Miguel »

RichardW wrote:http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 14&t=41273

It's a long read, and as yet un-resolved..... :roll:
You are trying to frighten Pawel away already? He just joined the forum in January :shock: . I am only yet on page 7 of that thread :lol:
lexi
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 2803
Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 17:51
Location: Scotland
My Cars:
x 138

Re: ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by lexi »

A quick summary
Nope! I must have missed it! :lol: :lol:
Citroen C5 1.6 HDI 110bhp Estate 06 plate

French Mistresses gone.
Citroen C5 HDI Mk 1 hatchback
Vel Satis 3.5 v6
ZX 1.9D Est.
ZX 1.9DHatch
Xantia 1.9td est.
Xantia 2.0 hdi Est.
Xantia V6 MK1
Xantia V6 MK 2
User avatar
tco_tm
Posts: 22
Joined: 21 Jan 2014, 12:32
Location: Poland
My Cars:

Re: ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by tco_tm »

Hello guys, I am just finishing 114th page of the thread you directed me to ;). Fank you very much! :P

I have to confuse, as maybe I did wrong, but before finishing that lecture and making another set of tests I gave my car for an ECU and transmission control unit software update and the problems looks like gone. I must say repairing engine was so much easier than solving front parking sensors mystery... ;)

Trying to write something constructive... I can not recall exact revision of my software before this update, but I think it was as old as a whole car (2005). I found in Lexia some information that update is possible and it corrects problems with rough engine running during warm up and erratic limp mode (kind of) without reason. After my adventure with Chinese VCI and obstacle sensors, I decided to let authorized service do the upgrade job for me and I do not regret it. 2000 km done and engine is pulling strong and does not have morning revs fluctuation. Also adaptive mode of transmission has more "fuzzy logic" in it now - it reacts better, keeps lower gears after pushing car longer and engagement of first/second gear from very slow rolling in neutral is now almost unnoticeable.

P.S. @Mandrake: In my case ignition was retarded all the way between 3000 and 5000 rpm. Exactly, not earlier and not later. Retardation did not depend on engine load, gear and/or throttle opening. It just was - always and easily detectable by my body and visible on ignition timing graph (live obd2) as a few degree recess in a plot. Mixture or rather readings from both oxygen sensors were normal and responded to throttle opening. LFTs were a notch above zero. Spark plugs were clean and reddish.
Stempy
Posts: 1626
Joined: 26 Feb 2004, 23:21
Location: Cloud Cuckooland
My Cars: C5 V6 Mk1 assainated by wife
Renault Kangoo 1.6 auto, tarted up and remapped
Still missing the Xantia V6
Not missing the AX
Contact:

Re: ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by Stempy »

tco_tm wrote:Hello,



I am not sure, so please do not take it as a clue, but I think it happens after a looot of driving with transmission set to "winter" mode, when car starts moving from second gear. Unfortunately, confirmation would take too much time, but I think when I was not using this option (it reduces fuel consumption, as I believe :P), I did not have this problem.

Regards,
Pawel
I may be mistaken, but isn't there a safety feature whereby the gearbox ECU will retard the ignition if the gearbox oil starts to get a bit too hot for comfort?
It infuriates me to be wrong when I know I'm right

Lexia ponce

http://perception.dyndns.biz/~avengineering/index.htm
User avatar
tco_tm
Posts: 22
Joined: 21 Jan 2014, 12:32
Location: Poland
My Cars:

Re: ES9A ignition retarded between 3000-5000 rpm

Post by tco_tm »

Retardation issue was independent from transmission fluid temperature. When I wrote that it was happening after a lot of driving (probably in a "winter" mode) I meant days and not a single trip.

When ECU switched once to this strange behavior it stayed this way for a very long time (for a few full fuel tanks at least). Engine restarts, battery disconnections (for a few seconds), way of driving and etc. did not have any effect on it. Eventually problem was disappearing for a few hundred meters, when engine got totally cold and was running in a rich choke mode (probably in an open loop, under different program)...

As a curiosity confirming the bug in the software, I can tell that I managed once to reset this behavior almost "intentionally", after stopping the car and connecting Lexia. There was a strange symptom then, as Lexia could not connect to engine module (there were no problems with communication with other units). I also noticed that I could not restart engine - starter was turning crankshaft but there were no ignition or fuel. After some nervous fighting with a key, locks, disconnecting and connecting VCI and switching some configuration options, engine started and problem has gone for a next few weeks.
Post Reply