all change at Citroen

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Xaccers
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by Xaccers »

Mandrake wrote:
wurlycorner wrote:
qprdude wrote:I thought manufacturers were legally bound to supply parts up to 10 years after production is discontinued?
Last LHM citroen was produced in 2001, 13 years ago...
It's not LHM I'd be worried about, there's plenty of 3rd party suppliers of LHM and its not rocket science to make an equivalent oil. Its specialised parts I'd be worried about. What 3rd party supplier is going to provide height correctors and suspension struts, etc, let alone something like a Hydractive computer ?
QPRdude said "last lhm Citroen" as in last Citroen car using lhm was 13 years ago :)
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by hawaiianblue »

Old-Guy wrote:
hawaiianblue wrote:..... In reality Ford diesels were knocky smokey old things until they started using the PSA designs.
A couple of years ago, I collected a brand new (-3 miles on the odometer) Focus Estate 2.0 with a Duratorq engine. Loud, rough engine, (though it went like a scalded cat) with a harsh, crashy ride. On a hundred+ mile cross-country trip, it's tendency to skitter towards the verge on every badly-surfaced RH bend was very wearing (evidently designed to the same standards as the Transit!) - I might add I was under strict time constraints. Dropped it off, and climbed into the old Xantia to do a personal errand; absolute bliss - quiet, comfortable ride with predictable handling on badly surfaced roads. I know which I'd have rather driven all day!
Same engine though, the 2.0 Duratorq TDCI used in the Focus is the PSA DW10 unit. Dagenham actually manufacture engines for use by PSA and Ford, ie. PSA often supplement their FR plants with Dagenham units, and Ford use FR built units when their respective plants have down time. Of course engine mountings play a massive part in NVH, I was just commenting on the engine though, clearly the ride is going to be poles apart. The 2.2 (Ford derived) diesel in my Jaguar X-Type though, it goes like a rocket, phenominal torque, and unless you rev it when cold it's hard to tell it's a diesel. However it's still not as refined as the (PSA DW12) 2.2 used in the newer Jaguar XF.

Which does bring me on to the question of ride - Jaguar offer a great riding car in their larger models which have air suspension, just a suggestion for those looking for a superior ride.
I'm a big fan of Hydropneumatique, but i can understand PSA's decision to end it - the simple fact is while we, citroen enthusiasts love it, it frightens the general public and many in the garage trade who see it as complex compared to simple coil springs - which we all know is a completely unfounded fear from the uneducated, however if you're a car manufacturer looking to shift cars then any fear generated in the general buying public is bad for business. Add that to the fact that tight suspension has become fashionable, made so by the likes of topgear, stiff suspension is great on a track test, but in the rear world it soon becomes bothersome.
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by Diabolical »

I've been driving Hydro Citroens for over 20 years starting with a CX Estate, now my everyday working car is a C5 Exclusive with hydrarctive 3 and conventional brakes.

Hate the brakes as used to Citroen hydraulic valve system, also I think suspension is s**t, to hard even had it checked out to make sure spheres didn't need changing even though they had been changed 2,000 miles ago.

So my personal opinion is go back to springs and give us back the brakes.

Maddly I DO like the C5.

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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by myglaren »

I half agree with you.
The C5 suspension is definitely harder and less compliant that previous models (C6 is very soft though)
I don't have a problem with the brakes, they seem fine to me and in an emergency the brake assist is extremely impressive.
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by Diabolical »

myglaren wrote:I half agree with you.
The C5 suspension is definitely harder and less compliant that previous models (C6 is very soft though)
I don't have a problem with the brakes, they seem fine to me and in an emergency the brake assist is extremely impressive.
Steve

I've seen the C6 drive over bumpy fields at ralleys and of course the Top Gear one where they used one for filming horse racing, no doubt superb. I was thinking C5 would be much the same, how disappointing was I!
Thing is I use non hydractive spheres on my hydractive Xantia for softness, but firmer CX turbo spheres on my CX Estate fronts and all round on CX Prestige for more firmness.
Seems I must be a bit fussy on compliance to which one I drive.

I have now got used to the brakes and they work well, I removed spring from my Xantia brake pedal so I have been so used to minimal pressure.

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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by vborovic »

@ myglaren - please don't make anymore posts at this forum, you have such a round post number now (8888) ... :D ... just kidding ...

As for the hydractive ride, it would really be a shame if the Citroen would drop the project they had going for 60 years with the Avant, but if the number of such cars sold is getting lower each year (by some sources, I've yet to see some exact backed & official figures), the economy principles are sadly very clear in that case ...
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by qprdude »

But isn't the facelift car much the same as the Mk 1, with front and rear independently damped, while the X7 with Hydractive 3 + has all four wheels independently damped? I think you need to try the latest system to make a proper comparison.
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by wurlycorner »

That's what I meant - my point was that it's more than 10 years since the last LHM citroen was made, so (if the comment about needing to supply parts for ten years after the car has been produced is right) then we're well beyond that on even the last of the line LHM stuff... Only the C5/C6 would still be under ten years, but they're LHS.
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by Mandrake »

qprdude wrote:But isn't the facelift car much the same as the Mk 1, with front and rear independently damped, while the X7 with Hydractive 3 + has all four wheels independently damped? I think you need to try the latest system to make a proper comparison.
Hydractive 3+ on the original C5 and the C5 facelift (not X7) is basically the same as Hydractive 2 on a Xantia, except the height control and hydraulic pump are electronic instead of mechanical.

Like Hydractive 2 an extra sphere at each end is switched in and out of circuit to change the damping and springing between two possible states, "soft" and "hard", where hard switches the extra sphere out of circuit and also blocks the flow between left and right sides.

The ECU measures various inputs including steering wheel angle, throttle movement, vehicle speed and acceleration, front suspension movement and so on and makes a moment by moment decision whether the car should be in the hard or soft state. Both front and rear suspension (eg all four wheels) switch modes at the same time so its either hard all around or soft all around.

The C6 introduced a far more advanced system called AMVAR (?) where the damping on each wheel is independently adjustable from the others by the computer - and not only is it independent, its variable rather than only "hard" or "soft". I believe it still also has an extra sphere at each end which it can switch in and out to change the springing rate like the earlier systems as well.

Because of independent control it can do neat tricks like adjusting the damping of the rear suspension at just the right time to control the rebound over a judder bump that the front suspension previously encountered - because it knows how long the wheel base is and what speed you're doing it knows exactly when the bump will arrive. Rather than just stiffening the suspension in adverse conditions (cornering hard, braking/accelerating hard etc) it can monitor the movement of each wheel over individual bumps, assess the road surface and make constant variable adjustments to the damping independently on each wheel to allow a bump to be absorbed easily but the rebound nipped in the bud. The C6 also re-introduced double wishbones that have been MIA since the CX/GS.

The C5 X7 inherited some of the improvements of the C6, but I don't think all. It did gain the double wishbones, but I'm not sure if it received the full AMVAR system of the C6. Information and documentation is a bit thin on the ground, so it would be great if someone knew of a source for any in depth technical documents for the C6 and C5 X7 suspension - that's a bit of light bedtime reading for me. :lol:

If the C5 X7 could, a few years down the road, be the last Hydraulic Citroen I ever own thanks to Citroen abandoning the system (or worse, going bust) I'd like to know a bit more about how the system works... ;)
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by Richard_C »

Back to the brands.

I always thought Peugeot were supposed to be "up market" brand in the PSA world. When I got my Synergie 15 years ago, the 806 had better looking upholstery inside and more chrome outside, and I think alloys on the mid range. The equipment levels were about the same, the Cit was about £1k cheaper. Maybe the 806 had a bit more sound damping under the bonnet as well. I recall some parallels with the days of BL - Citroen was the Austin/Morris, Peugeot the Rover.

Going back all those years, and before, Peugeot had a reputation for toughness: remember the 504 estate and its pickup equivalent - the Toyota of its day in Africa.

So, it looks like Peugeot lost its way on toughness, Citroen on whacky technology and weirdness (I remember fondly my early BX instrument panel and switch gear) and the whole corporation lost its way on market share. The reinvention of Citroen, Peugeot and DS as Austin, Rover and MG will at least create news if not sales.

The Japanese companies that split brands (Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti) in the USA did it partly because of the customer experience in the dealership - anyone shopping for a Mercedes Benz wouldn't want to queue up with the hoi polloi buying Toyota Yaris so give them a whole new dealer experience complete with thick pile carpet and fawning sales staff. I wonder if PSA will do anything to change the way dealers operate? Who will get the DS brand I wonder? If they strip it out of the current network a la Mini, I wonder if the current Citroen dealer network will have enough to sell - it might lead to practical issues like how far I have to go to get parts.

But - change they must. Assuming car manufacturing is a business not a hobby, and that the French Government will only go so far supporting a loss making national icon, they need to sell new cars to new buyers. I'm guessing that most people on this forum buy second hand and although we like the brand and the technology we don't make PSA a whole load of money.

On 12 April I drove my C5 tourer from Cambridge to an alp the others side of Geneva, and on 20th I drove back. That's 1200 miles or so of French roads. In that time I saw just one C5 III tourer, on Dutch plates, one C5 III saloon on Belgian plates and one on French plates. Most of the metal in the medium/big category was VAG (Audi, VW, Skoda) and a fair few BMWs and Mercs. Lots of ersatz Tonka toys from the far east. A fair number of Xsara Picassos trundling along, hardly any C4 Picassos. So, based on my unscientific sample (and accepting autoroutes at the weekend are not representative of the whole country) it looks like PSA are building big cars that people don't buy ....
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by wurlycorner »

My experience of Citroen dealers here, is that they've been gradually ditching the original ones (that actually stocked 'the range') and instead giving franchises to larger dealer networks where you get the C1/C2 and DS models sat alongside Vauxhalls (or suchlike) but stuff like the C5 doesn't feature at all, so even if you wanted to buy one, you'd struggle!
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by qprdude »

wurlycorner wrote:My experience of Citroen dealers here, is that they've been gradually ditching the original ones (that actually stocked 'the range') and instead giving franchises to larger dealer networks where you get the C1/C2 and DS models sat alongside Vauxhalls (or suchlike) but stuff like the C5 doesn't feature at all, so even if you wanted to buy one, you'd struggle!
Yep, tend to agree with that. Either multi franchise or franchise with loads of different manufacturers filling the forecourt but no C5's.
It can't compete with the rep-mobile Insignia's and Mondeo's so it's become a car for the purist. Pity, because the X7 is not a bad car. I waited quite a while for my one with the right spec to become available.

I expect I shall be down sizing after the current car anyway, so it will be a generic thing with wheels on 4 corners, an engine that goes vroom vroom, some windows and a plastic interior with cloth seats.
With a bit of luck, it might have electric windows and mirrors, a radio of some sort and decent lights.
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Re: all change at Citroen

Post by hawaiianblue »

That's much the same with all manufacturers though, It's mainly due to the high franchise costs, It's much cheaper to just become an independent specialist. I think about the only one that seems to hang on to their small dealers is Ford. It's not so much the manufacturers 'getting rid' of smaller dealers, it's just the smaller dealers choosing to give up the franchise, because the franchise models that manufacturers use these days lend themselves to larger dealer groups.

Obviously manufacturers want to make sure their dealerships offer the same facilities and customer experience as the competition, which means many small firms with a small outdated site can't upgrade them to the current standard cheaply.
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