Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

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xantos
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by xantos »

So can the high pressure regulator be refurbished? Asuming that the spheres are correct (which I believe they are) and over pressure in the spheres is not an issue... Firstly I will check the regulator (it ticks once per 2 minutes) but must fabricate a gauge... I still get farting sometimes. It hsppens also when car on high and then put on low. Like pressure is escaping somewhere...
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

You might want to grease the front struts using LHM. The rear struts have a small amount of leakage to keep them moving smoothly, but the fronts don't.
James
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by xantos »

An expert question... Which type of injection is on a TCT engine? Standard (each injector is controlled from a separate channel) or doubling (injectors are controlled in pairs)? I need this information for properly setting my LPG controller...
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by CitroJim »

Xantos, as far as I know they're batch-fired with means all four fire simultaneously...

Sequential-fire (your standard or doubling) systems need a cam position sensor so the ECU knows exactly where it is in the engine cycle. A TCT doesn't have one.

If there is no cam position sensor the ECU has no way of knowing if any given cylinder is on a compression or exhaust stroke so therefore cannot tell when to fire individual injectors. Give it a crank and cam sensor and it then knows exactly!

Firing them all at the same time seems a bit odd but it does work!
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by Mandrake »

Not entirely true Jim - pair firing of injectors does not require a cam sensor any more than a waste spark ignition system requires a cam sensor. :)

I don't know about the TCT but I know for a fact the ES9J4 fires injectors in pairs, and as you know there is no cam sensor on an ES9J4...

There are three injector drivers in the ECU and the injectors are fired in opposing pairs, one from the front bank, one from the rear bank simultaneously, just like the ignition. (Each pair of injectors is electrically wired in parallel in the wiring loom) The ECU knows which cylinder pair out of the three pairs to fire because there is an ident notch in the crank sensor signal at TDC cylinder one. So the ECU always knows which of the three pairs it needs to fire for both spark and injectors.

So there's no reason why the TCT couldn't also be pair fired. As far as I know batch firing went out of fashion in the late 80's so I'd be surprised if it was batch fired...

One thing is for sure - if it doesn't have a cam sensor it is definitely NOT fully sequentially fired, it must be either pair fired or batch fired, as without a cam sensor there is no way to narrow down to a single cylinder which cylinder to inject/spark, only to a pair of opposing cylinders...
Simon

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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by CitroJim »

It's an old ECU on the TCT Simon so I'd expect it to be batch but pair is fair :-D

It's an MP3.2 and they go back a bit now...

One sure way to find out and that's to see what's going to each injector. There are test lamps you can buy that go between the injector and its connector. On the TCT they're nocely exposed (unlike the V6!) for such a test...
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by Mandrake »

I can think of a an easy test to confirm whether its pair fired or group fired just with a test light - no fancy scope needed... :wink:

First connect a (screwdriver style) test light between battery positive and the negative of injector one (back probing the connector) to confirm that the injectors are ground side switched - they should be, and if they are the light will pulse with injector firing.

Now connect the test light between the negative of injector one and the negative of injector two and see if the light pulses. Then repeat between injector 1 and 3 and 1 and 4.

If it pulses for all three combinations (1-2, 1-3, 1-4) then it must be a fully sequential system. (Which it won't be in this case as there is no cam sensor)

If it pulses for only two of the three combinations and is dead for one combination it must be pair fired. (Testing between two paired cylinders won't give any voltage differential as the negatives will be switching together)

If it doesn't pulse for any of the three combinations it must be group fired. (As all injector negatives will be switching together)

Simple. :)
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by xantos »

Thank you for the info! Much appreciated! =D>

I will have to re-set my LPG controller, as now it's trembling if revs a low (around 1200-1400rpm) and flooring the throttle. It's trembling on gasoline also, but just a little bit and I would think that's normal. Just to low revs...

Suspension... Well... For the last few days electrovalves decide not to work at all. They came to life for just a few seconds and then nothing. Today I reset the suspension computer (removing fuse F8 for 10 minutes) and that made them happy. Now they seem to work fine.
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by xantos »

About injection.... I can assume from this diagram of Bosch MP3.2 that the injectors (marked 1330) are fired all at the same time (they are all connected to the same "wires")... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Image
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
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C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Not necessarily. While they are all connected to line 68 (on their pin 1 lines), they are individually connected to 34, 35, 16 and 17 (via their pin 2 lines), so they could be managed individually, or in groups. What is item 1320?
James
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by xantos »

http://www.autoelectric.ru/auto/peugeot ... 10j2te.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
Hell Razor5543
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

So the injectors are connected individually to the injector control unit. This means that they could be triggered separately. Does the engine use common rail technology, do you know? The HDi diesel engine does.
James
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ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
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Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR

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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by Mandrake »

Its a petrol engine James, so it will be a standard common rail petrol injection system.

1320 is the engine ECU - which has built in injector drivers. Its fairly universal on petrol engines for the positive of all the injectors to be tied together and supplied through a relay and the negatives to be ground side switched by transistors in the ECU.

Interesting that all four injectors are individually wired to the ECU - that means that the MP 3.2 ECU might be capable of fully sequential injection (it could have four separate injector drivers) but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is - they could still be wired in pairs internally driven by two driver transistors, or even if it has four drivers if there is no cam sensor on this particular engine it must still fire them in pairs or as a group. (The MP3.2 is used on many different engines, some of which may have cam sensors, so depending on specific programming it may be able to work either sequentially or pair fired)

My money is still on pair fired - rather than guessing I suggest Xantos tries the test light test I described above which should answer the question conclusively.
Simon

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2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by xantos »

I've just done testing the injectors. Looks like they are batch fired.

Connected the probe lamp to injector 1 and positive to battery to determine, which one is ground. It pulsated on one pin (let's say pin 1). Then connected probe lamp to pin1/injector1 and pin1/injector2(3 and 4). No pulse on all of the injectors. They are all pulsating if pin1/injector1 and pin2/injector2(3 and 4).
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
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Re: Removing 2.0 TCT engine and other Activa thingies

Post by Mandrake »

Yep, they must be batch fired then! At least you know for sure now. :)

Problem is your LPG kit offered fully sequential or pair fired as its choices, does it even support batch fired systems ?

Edit: Just to double check, you left the injectors plugged in while doing your test light probing, right ? If not the test would not have been valid.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
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