Xantia II electric issues

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xf1ref
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Xantia II electric issues

Post by xf1ref »

Hello and Merry Christmas everyone!
First excuse my bad english and if is a similar post for next issues. I search all over internet with no result.
My car is a Xantia MK2 from 1998, 1.8 16V 110hp.
Next I will present the electric issues:
1. The heater/blower on my car is running fine, but when is in the position auto and I press the break pedal, the rotation speed of fan is increasing.
I checked the conectors from the fan, the green relay under the dash, I even put a relay on key switch on brown plug. Other Xantia owners from my country don't have this issue. What is the connection between the heater blower and break lights circuit? Is there a solution for this issue?

2.In the past time I've seen that when I turn on the heated rear window and mirrors the dashbord light is weakens. Recently I mounted at car a ceiling lamp from laguna II (I'm not sure for this thing name :lol: ). In this I mounted a green minivoltmeter.
Last night it was fog in my town and I use in addition for dipped beam the fog lights. When I switch on heated rear window and mirrors I noticed a drop of voltage on minivoltmeter...down to 11.6V. The engine was at idle speed ~900rpm and if accelerate up to 1500rpm the voltage increases up to 13V. I checked with a multimeter on battery terminals and same voltage.
Please see the below movie, when I switch on the heated rear window and mirrors the voltage drop to 12.


Please if anyone know what cause heater/blower speed issue and voltage drop from heated rear window..share with me :cry:
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Xantidote »

I don't think 13 volts is low, when you are using the headlights, fog lights, and the heated rear window, which in total will impose quite an extra load on the alternator. The fact that you are getting 13 volts means that the alternator is coping, though it won't be putting much into the battery.

Can't help you with the heater/blower
Martin

1995 Xantia TDLX (deceased :( )
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by xf1ref »

Thank you for reply.
I am worried because at engine idle speed the voltage drop below 12V. In the movie the voltage drops at 12v at the end.. but after few seconds drops below 12.
I suppose is a wire problem or is the alternator half dead :?
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Mandrake »

xf1ref wrote:1. The heater/blower on my car is running fine, but when is in the position auto and I press the break pedal, the rotation speed of fan is increasing.
I checked the conectors from the fan, the green relay under the dash, I even put a relay on key switch on brown plug. Other Xantia owners from my country don't have this issue. What is the connection between the heater blower and break lights circuit? Is there a solution for this issue?
I don't think there is anything particularly unusual about this - on both of the Xantia's I've owned the fan speed if on a medium speed increases somewhat when the brake pedal is pressed - I believe the cause for this is that the control voltage from the climate control ECU to the fan works in a reverse sense - eg a high voltage commands slow speed and a low voltage commands high speed.

Pressing the brake pedal turns on the stop lights and causes a voltage drop which affects the supply to the climate control ECU which reduces the voltage output on the control wire to the fan slightly which actually causes the fan to speed up.

As long as the speed change isn't large I wouldn't bother about it as you could spend a lot of time hunting for a fault that isn't a fault but really just a design limitation. (Under rated / too thin wiring used in the electrical system)
2.In the past time I've seen that when I turn on the heated rear window and mirrors the dashbord light is weakens. Recently I mounted at car a ceiling lamp from laguna II (I'm not sure for this thing name :lol: ). In this I mounted a green minivoltmeter.
Last night it was fog in my town and I use in addition for dipped beam the fog lights. When I switch on heated rear window and mirrors I noticed a drop of voltage on minivoltmeter...down to 11.6V. The engine was at idle speed ~900rpm and if accelerate up to 1500rpm the voltage increases up to 13V. I checked with a multimeter on battery terminals and same voltage.
Definitely something wrong with your charging system - it should be able to maintain at least 14 volts with headlights/heated rear window etc turned on even at idle.

I checked my Xantia only a few days ago and found that with heated rear window on, cabin blower fan on fast, A/C on, headlights on dip, front fog lights on and engine at idle (650 rpm on a V6) it was maintaining a steady 14.15 volts at the battery posts. Optimum range is 14.0 to 14.4 volts with the engine running.

Even 13 volts is far too low with the engine running, let alone 11.6v. If its dropping this low it could well cause the issues you see with the brake pedal affecting fan speed excessively.

First thing I would do is check your accessory belt is tight and not slipping, also Citroen engines are known for the harmonic balancer rubber in the crank pulley to fail - it begins to slip under load, sometimes causing a squeak/squeal and sometimes heavy steering at idle.

Draw a chalk line across the side of the crank pulley from metal to metal across the rubber and check it a day or two later to see if the chalk line is still straight - if not you need a new crank pulley ! (Even if it isn't the cause, or whole cause of your low voltage)

If the belt seems tight and crank pulley is ok you probably have a faulty alternator or wiring from the alternator to the battery.
Last edited by Mandrake on 22 Dec 2013, 18:43, edited 2 times in total.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

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1978 CX 2400
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Mandrake »

Xantidote wrote:I don't think 13 volts is low, when you are using the headlights, fog lights, and the heated rear window, which in total will impose quite an extra load on the alternator. The fact that you are getting 13 volts means that the alternator is coping, though it won't be putting much into the battery.
I really can't agree with this Martin - with the engine idling even under load of headlights etc 13 volts is way too low for a modern high output alternator system. It should be at least 14 volts, ideally between 14.0 and 14.4 volts at all times with the engine running regardless of accessory load, measured at the battery posts.

A lead acid battery will not charge anywhere near full capacity with 13 volts, I don't recall the exact figure off hand but it would be something like 50% capacity only.

Definitely a charging system fault - whether faulty alternator, wiring, slipping accessory belt or crank pulley remains to be seen!
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by xf1ref »

Thanks Mandrake,
I will do the test with chalk line and I will check the wiring, the fuses box from engine compartment and one inside the car.
The first issue is not very important, I can live with blower speed increases.
The second is important because recently I was at warranty with battery that was discharged. Is the second time this year.
I'll be back with news and measurements.
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Xantidote »

Mandrake wrote:I really can't agree with this Martin
That's OK Simon, 2 heads are better than 1 :)

My normal daytime voltage is typically 14.2-14.3 volts. I see 14.4v when putting charge back into battery after starting the engine, whilst driving (so > tickover rpm). Night time, with headlights on, I certainly have a lower voltage, although without nipping out for a run in car, can't give you a precise figure ATM, but < 14.0 volts IIRC.

Your V6 may have a higher output than us with lowly TDs - my alternator is 80 amp

Certainly agree no harm in OP checking belt etc
Martin

1995 Xantia TDLX (deceased :( )
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Xantidote »

Update:

As I said previously, my 1.9TD produces 14.2 - 14.4 volts once the battery has recovered from brief spin of the starter.

Interestingly, this morning at tickover, the voltage drops to 13.0-13.1 volts with dipped headlamps, heater fan on maximum, and the heated rear window all switched on - increasing the revs does not change the voltage at all. This suggests to me that the alternator is OK and operating at maximum output. As soon as I switch off any one of the 3 major loads, the voltage increases a little, but not reaching 14.0v

I'm not in full agreement with Simon, but the V6 may have a higher output alternator. I certainly think OP should check the belt tension. Maybe the alternator, although charging, could have a defective diode, or be down on one phase, so that although it's charging, it's not generating maximum output. As we're talking of the 110 HDI, I'd assume its got a higher amps output alternator than the 80 amps of my TD
Martin

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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Mandrake »

I take back some of what I said after just taking some more measurements.

Headlights on dip + rear heated window + blower fan on full + A/C on = 13.0 at idle and 13.8 revving to 1000 rpm or above.

Headlights on dip + rear heated window + blower fan on full = 13.7v at idle and 13.9v at 1000 rpm or above.

Headlights on dip + rear heated window = 13.9v at idle and 13.9v above 1000 rpm.

Headlights only = 14.0v regardless of rpm.

Only with everything on could I get it down to 13v and only at idle. With the A/C off it was at least 13.8v at any rpm.

BTW to my knowledge the V6 doesn't have a bigger than normal alternator - I think its a standard 80A compared to the 120A on an HDi.

I still think the voltage is too low on the OP's car under the stated conditions...
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by xf1ref »

Today I checked the battery connectors, all big fuses in the engince compartiment, all the ground connections to the car and everything is ok.
The accessory belt is tight and not slipping, the crank pulley is ok...with AC on is not squeak.
Next I started the engine with headlights+rear heated window+fog lights+blower fan an make measurements on the alternator. I have same voltage on thin wire and thick one..at that time were 11.6V on alternator and on battery connectors.
I think that the alternator is tired and not handle because if I speed up the engine at 1100rpm the votlage grow up to 13.6
I saw at a friend with xantia mk1 1.6 that is have a 97A Valeo alternator.
If mine alternator 80A will die I will searck for a bigger one, minimum 97Amps. I don't think is wrong to put a bigger one.

Today a friend with a diesel skoda came to me to check charging voltage and it have 13.8V with everything turned on. Hope my alternator will survive until spring comes [-o< .
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Xantidote »

xf1ref:

You're obviously keeping an eye on the voltage which is all I can suggest, other than swapping the alternator for a known good one. I wouldn't want to do much driving with a voltage less than 12 volts, or the battery will slowly lose it's charge.

Tempting to fit a higher output alternator, but the one you have, assuming it is the right one for the car, really should be able to cope (or Citroen would have fitted a higher rated one to start with). If trying a different output alternator, make sure the pulley lines up correctly. Don't know if you would need to change the mounting bracket or pulley.

Good luck
Martin

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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by xf1ref »

I have nothing to do this winter but to keep my eyes on the voltmeter. I saw on the internet for my car model there are 3 alternators types: 80, 90 an 97 Amps.
I will wait maybe someone expert will tell me what alternator fits from other model.
I changed the conection for relay on the second wire of the grey plug from the ignition switch and seems that increasing rotation speed of blower fan when I press break pedal have disappeared. I watched on the electrical diagram and the bigger consumer seems to be the break lights, 4 * 21w bulbs plus additional grid 5 * 5w...in total of 109W or aprox. 8 Amps consumption.
Next are some pics with the relay and the car last summer.
Thanks all for your help and Happy new year!
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

One thing that would be of assistance (to those with the knowledge) is to post up the last 8 digits of the VIN number. That way an expert could then look up the full equipment level of your car when she left the factory, and (I would imagine) this would include the spec of the alternator fitted.
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by xf1ref »

Thanks for advice. This is the VIN: VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]
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Re: Xantia II electric issues

Post by Carsten S »

As far as i can see, it is fittet with an 80A alternator.
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