Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

isisalar
Posts: 662
Joined: 27 Apr 2008, 14:16
Location: london UK
My Cars:
x 3

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by isisalar »

Hi Simon
I'm sure you remember the discussion we had in the summer re the erratic behavior of the rear suspension on my HDI, the symptoms pointing towards dodgy electrovalves or spheres. Upon close inspection it was discovered that the main pivot shaft had broken off the height corrector cradle. A replacement from CitroenXM solved the problem completely.
If you have no undertray, and given the severe weather and no doubt plenty of salt you get up there it's certainly worth checking out. It could have seized and/or snapped recently. If it's intact, obviously clean it up and lube it.
I carefully observed how the very experienced specialist indy undertook the job of cleaning up and lubricating the replacement cradle before fitting and it made me realize how futile my own attempts with WD40/plusgas and spray grease with it still on the car were.
One of the hydraulic connections on mine needed some heat on it to get it off but i believe it is possible to remove the cradle alone to lube/replace. I'm sure you're no stranger to the job.
Best of luck with it.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
02 Saxo 1.1i desire wife's present car(sadly now very ill cambelt gone- Doh)
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8614
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by Mandrake »

A bit of an update on this - although I think my strut spheres are quite low on gas, I'm no longer sure they are the main cause of the ride harshness and bounciness I was getting recently.

The first thing I discovered is that my front tyres were really flat - down to 28 psi when they should be 34 psi. #-o Here's the thing though - I only topped them up about 3 weeks prior to that, and at that time they were down under 30 as well.

For some reason the pressure loss in all my tyres has increased dramatically with the cold weather - is that normal ? In the summer I might loose 1 or 2 psi per month, the last two times I've checked I've lost 4-6 psi in about 2-3 weeks at the front, and about 2-4 psi at the rears.

The left and right have both lost the same amount so its not a puncture, and the front tyres had new valves fitted when the tyres were fitted a year and a bit ago...

After pumping up the tyres the "bounciness" mostly went away, to be replaced by a very hard crashy ride...

This morning after driving to the train station I gave the suspension a quick bounce at both ends while it was still in the soft mode - and there is plenty of movement, at least in the soft mode (a couple of inches at the front, several at the back) so the hydractive spheres seem ok.

Then tonight driving home I realised the ride was extremely crashy - a stretch of road on the trip home has periodic gaps in the seal that feel like expansion gaps on a bridge to drive over (but worse) and the car was crashing REALLY harshly across them at both the front AND the rear, enough to rattle your teeth almost even though it was in soft mode at the time.

Yep, you guessed it, what I observed tonight are the unmistakable symptoms of large amounts of air getting into the hydraulic system. It's also lifting rather slowly in the mornings, taking more than 30 seconds to very slowly lift itself, also a symptom of air ingress. (Pumping capacity of the pump drops dramatically with even quite small inlet air leaks)

Some weeks ago I noticed the joiner stub on the inlet line to the hydraulic pump was weeping (the V6 has a joiner stub at each end with two hose clamps unlike most other models) and the ride was a bit harsh then - I couldn't get the clamp any tighter so I replaced it with a new one and moved it to the end - this seemed to help for a while, the weeping stopped and the ride became a lot less crashy for a couple of weeks but it has returned:

Image

I think I have a serious air leak again, and I think its probably happening at one or both of the joiner stubs - because the wall thickness of the hose (cord re-enforced high pressure hydraulic hose) is far too great for the clamp to squeeze on - no matter how much the clamp squeezes on the outside it can't cause the inside of the hose to clamp securely and mould onto the spigots. Here is the same joiner hose at the tank end of the pipe:

Image

As can be seen, its quite thick walled and stiff stuff. Can anyone suggest where to get some more suitable hose that is still 1/2" ID but has only a modest wall thickness and is a bit softer so that it will mould more readily to the contours of the spigots when clamped with the hose clamps ? The original Citroen stubs are a kind of injection moulded rubber, and quite pliable by comparison and maybe half the wall thickness.

I think its best if I replace these two stubs of hose before throwing any money at spheres because even if its not the whole problem there is certainly a LOT of harshness and crashiness from air at the moment which needs to be sorted out first. :(
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
xantos
Posts: 409
Joined: 02 Apr 2013, 10:05
Location: Slovenia
My Cars: Xantia 1.9TD Break non-hydractive (1999)
Xantia 3.0 V6 Activa (1998)
C4 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mk2 (2010)
x 10

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by xantos »

Mandrake wrote:I think I have a serious air leak again, and I think its probably happening at one or both of the joiner stubs - because the wall thickness of the hose (cord re-enforced high pressure hydraulic hose) is far too great for the clamp to squeeze on - no matter how much the clamp squeezes on the outside it can't cause the inside of the hose to clamp securely and mould onto the spigots.
Exactly what I thing is responsible for my air leak! I will try and smear the spigot with silicone and then put the pipe and clamp back on. Should eliminate air intake... I hope that it will come apart when it needs to! :!:
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8614
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by Mandrake »

I would be cautious about getting silicon into the hydraulic system, I'm not sure about the compatibility with the seals used in the system. Anyone know ?
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
xantos
Posts: 409
Joined: 02 Apr 2013, 10:05
Location: Slovenia
My Cars: Xantia 1.9TD Break non-hydractive (1999)
Xantia 3.0 V6 Activa (1998)
C4 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mk2 (2010)
x 10

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by xantos »

Maybe I got misunderstood... Silicone I meant sealing paste that would seal the gap between spigot and pipe

Image
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8614
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by Mandrake »

I know what you mean, but if there is a gap there a small bit of silicone may still be sucked in.

Here is a picture of the original stub hose from the tank end of the inlet hose (the pump end is the same on the V6 as well) and you can clearly see the much greater wall thickness of the replacement hose on the left:

Image

Inside diameter of both is 13mm, (the original is stretched at the end making it look bigger) outside diameter of the original is 19mm while the replacement is 22mm. I believe the wall thickness and stiffness is too great to allow the hose to mould to the shape of the spigot properly, no matter how tight the clamps.

I'm searching online to see if I can find a better replacement than the one on the car now, I'll post the details if I find some.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
xantos
Posts: 409
Joined: 02 Apr 2013, 10:05
Location: Slovenia
My Cars: Xantia 1.9TD Break non-hydractive (1999)
Xantia 3.0 V6 Activa (1998)
C4 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mk2 (2010)
x 10

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by xantos »

I would be more concerned about a chunk of silicone paste getting into the system... If you wait till it hardness it shouldn't be a problem. Silicone is LHM resistant as I'm aware...
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
Xantidote
Posts: 1146
Joined: 03 May 2009, 22:07
Location: Merseyside
My Cars:
x 5

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by Xantidote »

Would a generous smear of heavy grease all round the exposed end, work as a temporary measure, to see if there's any improvement? Also, I'm not keen on jubilee clips in the smaller sizes - my thinking here is that the jubilee clip's thread housing can't bend to suit the diameter of whatever hose you're tightening it up against. At the reservoir end of the feed pipe, the pressure is sub-atmospheric, and air is a lot more seaching - IMHO you're right to start your search there. A pity the hose itself is corrugated, as this won't help with getting a good seal
Martin

1995 Xantia TDLX (deceased :( )
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8614
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by Mandrake »

Problem is I think its the pump end of the hose leaking and you can't get at the pump end of the joiner with a finger to smear anything there, and it would melt and run away due to engine heat anyway.

I agree about small jubilee clips, but we're talking 19mm - they're usually ok. I think its just the hose is too thick and stiff to mould to the spigot in an air tight fashion - at least not long term, as it was working well for a while but then started weeping again. Enough of a leak to weep oil is certainly enough of a leak to suck in air under suction.

The hose itself is corrugated but the joiner doesn't clamp down directly onto the outside of the hose - the hose actually has a moulded plastic spigot at each end that looks like this:

Image

It has two slight bumps at each end with the clamp presumably meant to go between them. I've found some hose I like the look of here:

http://www.desihose.co.uk/viewproduct.aspx?pid=1135#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

12.7mm ID (so slightly snugger than 13mm) 19mm OD (same as the original) and it only has polyester yarn reinforcement - many of the other pipes they stock have wire reinforcement etc which would make it too stiff.

It also has the lowest bending radius of any of the 12/13mm hoses at 90mm, which I take it to mean that its one of the softer hoses they stock, but is still rated to 120 degrees C. Should be perfect for getting a good reliable air tight seal so I've emailed them to find out what their minimum order is. (No reply yet)

Because the V6 pump spigot is 13mm as well as the tank (the pump on most Xantia's is 10mm) I could even use a single length of that hose all the way from the tank to the pump with no joiners - at least as a test. It couldn't be routed across under the engine cover like the original due to the tight bend radiuses.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
DHallworth
Donor 2023
Posts: 2382
Joined: 20 Nov 2005, 17:05
Location: Glasgow
My Cars:
x 119

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by DHallworth »

Yikes... That pipe that you're having problems with, it is still available from Citroen but now costs £62.77 including VAT. I dare say you could negotiate something off that but it's certainly not a cheap pipe.
'98 Xantia Activa V6 :-D
'00 XM V6 Exclusive
'09 C5 2.7 HDi Exclusive
‘10 C5 3.0 HDi Exclusive
'12 C6 3.0 HDi Exclusive
'15 C4 BlueHDi Feel
User avatar
xantos
Posts: 409
Joined: 02 Apr 2013, 10:05
Location: Slovenia
My Cars: Xantia 1.9TD Break non-hydractive (1999)
Xantia 3.0 V6 Activa (1998)
C4 2.0 HDi Exclusive Mk2 (2010)
x 10

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by xantos »

Mandrake wrote:Problem is I think its the pump end of the hose leaking and you can't get at the pump end of the joiner with a finger to smear anything there, and it would melt and run away due to engine heat anyway.
I was thinking something like this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-TEMP-GAS ... 1178384072" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a 2.0 TCT engine I can get my fingers in 8-)
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8614
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by Mandrake »

DHallworth wrote:Yikes... That pipe that you're having problems with, it is still available from Citroen but now costs £62.77 including VAT. I dare say you could negotiate something off that but it's certainly not a cheap pipe.
Is that definitely the special V6 version of the hose ? What section did you find that under ?

When I looked on service.citroen.com by VIN number lookup I couldn't find any inlet hose at all, only when I selected Xantia II without VIN number did one show up, but from the diagram I couldn't tell for sure if it was the right one or not...

Yeah I wouldn't be buying it at £62 :shock: - as far as I know the main length of hose with the moulded plastic spigots is fine and should be leak free - its only one or both of the 60mm joiner sections at each end that will be leaking at a joint, so I really only need 2x 60mm lengths of the correct size and type hose like the one I linked to. (But will probably need to buy a minimum of a couple of metres depending on where I buy from...) Hopefully less than £10.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
DHallworth
Donor 2023
Posts: 2382
Joined: 20 Nov 2005, 17:05
Location: Glasgow
My Cars:
x 119

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by DHallworth »

It's under suspension and supply piping Simon.

David.
'98 Xantia Activa V6 :-D
'00 XM V6 Exclusive
'09 C5 2.7 HDi Exclusive
‘10 C5 3.0 HDi Exclusive
'12 C6 3.0 HDi Exclusive
'15 C4 BlueHDi Feel
isisalar
Posts: 662
Joined: 27 Apr 2008, 14:16
Location: london UK
My Cars:
x 3

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by isisalar »

Hi Simon
I posted on this very subject back in the summer with pictures and details of the supplier of the tubing. How to trasfer the post over I don't know but if you or one of the mods could oblige please feel free.
The post is on page 8 of the 10 minute xantia mod thread.
All those elbows and so on are uneccessary on diesels possibly the v6 also. Sounds like you'll be able just use one length of tubing.
Cheers
Paul
isisalar wrote:Re Simon's post regarding air leaks in the tank to pump feed line. I replaced mine completely prior to doing the o rings in the pump, and it seems to be working perfectly. Also did same on the old VSX.
The elbows on the pump end and elsewhere are certainly weak points and trying to copy the original pipe run is almost impossible. I can only speak of the HDI and the 1.9 td but in both cases by re routing the pipe it's been a very simple and effective job. In both cases the elbows are completely unnecessary. Here's a couple of pics of the HDI.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m5ttpnehfvrr8 ... .30.49.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t4npuk0jyuihu ... .31.11.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On the HDI the tank end spigot is just a little too small, by less 1mm, to give a snug fit in the 1/2" fuel grade tubing readily available, so I built it up a little with a bit of PTFE tape, was going to use amalgam tape but the hydraulics place the bits came from recommended the PTFE. This is also used, internally, to seal the aluminium to brass reducer, necessary for the 3/8" tube going on to the pump, this was a good fit on the HDI. Obviously jubilee clips where necessary.
There's even a handy hook on top of the rad to tuck the pipe into and cable ties can be used to support if needed. I left the original pipe in situ, can always use if the other's leaking.
I originally tried Pirtek for the bits but they were unable to supply a suitable joiner at all, as luck would have it, next door to Pirtek were these guys http://www.hopespare.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; who had the bits to make up a good joiner,were cheaper, and a lot more helpful. They're only down South but may do a postal service.
Not sure if this would work on the v6 but hopefully this may help anyone whose Xantia feels like a skateboard over little bumps. Do the pump o rings as well, very easy too on the HDI, and all else being well, it will transform your car.
Cheers
Paul
Last edited by myglaren on 20 Dec 2013, 19:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Copied and pasted Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
02 Saxo 1.1i desire wife's present car(sadly now very ill cambelt gone- Doh)
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8614
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: Less than 2 years from new spheres ?

Post by Mandrake »

Thanks Paul, it looks like you used Pirtek hose ? I don't suppose you have the part number for the larger diameter one at the tank end ?

I don't really want to replace the entire length like you did however - just the stubs at the ends. There are no right angled joints on the V6, just formed bends that allow it to run neatly under the engine cover.

On another note, I'm strongly considering getting the multilayer front suspension spheres for mine - they last so long they'll see the life of the car out with no measurable pressure loss, the ones on my previous Xantia lasted well over 10 years with no significant loss of pressure...

I have a thought relating to the multilayer spheres - originally they are only fitted on the front struts and front Hydractive centre, but can anyone see a reason why a front Hydractive sphere (450cc 70 bar) could not be used for an accumulator sphere ? (400cc 62 bar)

The advantage of course being that the very important accumulator sphere could potentially last 10+ years without replacement or pressure loss. Both spheres have no damper valve, pressure is very similar, in fact the slightly higher pressure and slightly larger volume should actually be beneficial in the functioning of the accumulator sphere by giving more reserve storage possibly at the expense of slightly longer pump up time in the morning. (Probably only an extra couple of seconds)

The only possible snag I can see is that perhaps the multilayer diaphragms would not take kindly to operating at 170 bars (Thus causing a large amount of diaphragm flex) all the time the car is running ? Anyone tried this substitution ? It's just a pie in the sky thought at the moment... :)
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
Post Reply