Transmission name jargon: what has what?

[nametooshort]

Another Pug and Cit combined question.
Unfortunately, I still haven't learned the different transmissions used on PugCit vehicles, it would be useful to know what's called what.

I know there is a 5 speed manual transmission that's used in my 305, which is common to 205s, C15s, BXs (possibly?) and other vehicles. This particular transmission is defined by the weird pivoting shifter linkage attached to the steering rack, the pump mounting on the transmission (for power steering or Citroen fluid pumps driven by the 'wrong' side of the cam shaft) and by the little prongs with M7 holes which stick out of the front, for use on the Talbot Horizon's clutch system.

I know there is another 5-speed manual transmission which is used on later non-fluid-suspension cars, which is similar except it has a different shifter linkage, no longer has the pump mount, and no longer has the Talbot slave cylinder prongs. It is found in 306s etc?

Then there is a 3rd version used in the more powerful TDs with fluid suspension, which has the pump mount, as found in Xantia 2.1td and 1.9td etc, but it is otherwise not very similar to the first one on this list.

Then there is the auto transmission which seems very unusual, only used in Xantias, 406s and Xsaras.

However, as you can tell, I don't know what these transmissions are called.

Could anybody here who knows their PugCit cars really in detail write me a little basic list of XUD/DW family transmissions, what they are called (like, their jargon names for example, VW Vanagon transmissions are usually called ABB, DH, ABD, ABF etc) and what they are fitted into? And the basic differences? (like, input shaft sizes and output shaft sizes I guess?)

I think there are only 3 or 4 variants plus one single auto variant, so it shouldn't be a very big list.

So basically, is there anybody here who knows PugCit cars as well as the average VW person knows VW cars, and is able to regurgitate stuff like that?

Thanks.

[Hell Razor5543]

I don't know if this helps, but the manual transmission in the BX diesel and the 90HP Xantia HDi is the BE3, while the gearbox in the more powerful Xantia HDi is the ML5T.

[VertVega]

Xantia '98 2.0i 16V Manual gearbox type was BE3
C5 2005 2.0i 16V Manual gearbox type is BE4

If you need more detailed information download this pdf file.
http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/biuletyny/%28 ... VASION.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gearbox types Xantia (page 184), XM (p.185) and Synergie (p.186) are listed there.
You can also get other French car technical documents from that site.

Edit: Models available are Xsara, Saxo, C1, 2,3,4,5, 6 and 8 Xantia, Synergie, XM and
in the upper directory Peugeot models. Some reading for you

[addo]

There are three basic autos; the 4HP14, the AL4 and 4HP20. Different internals and final drives depending on original power unit.

The manuals - there's the BE1, BE3, BE4/5, MA5, ML5T and a six speed I can't recall the name of (might be the BE4/6). You might find in France there was an MG5 to fit Douvrin fours, although I only know of it on PRV V6 engines.

[nametooshort]

Man, its complicated, all im trying to do is stick another engine into a car that it doesn't belong in lol. Should be easy.

It seems the transmission that I am familiar with (the one in my 305) is the BE3 transmission, which also survived well into Xantias and other cars.

Im reading through all that stuff now, its fascinating. If only it said drive-shaft and CV joint dimensions, that would be really useful for me. Maybe it does say it somewhere but I haven't found it yet?

Thanks very much for the link!

[Hell Razor5543]

If you have the choice, I would fit the ML5T over the BE3, as it is designed for higher torque engines.

[nametooshort]

So, when it comes to XU/DW family engines, are ML5s and BE3s basically interchangeable? Like, I know the shifter system is different and stuff, but all the 'big' stuff like bell housing bolts and mounting point locations, they are all the same?

[spider]

BE1's (5 speeds at least) have reverse top left next to first, they usually use a cable with a "lug" you lift like some of the Vauxhalls to prevent accidental selection.

BE3's have reverse bottom right where "6th" would live. The change from BE1 to BE3 was around 1988/1989.

Not sure what the six speed manual ones are designated, I seem to think reverse lives top left on these but not sure.

BE units tend to be fitted to XU and DW based (XU petrol and XUD / HDi 1.6 / 2.0 and DW8) units. Not sure on later specs I'm a few years out of date now.

Hope that's some help.

[nametooshort]

So, going by that description, the transmission in my 305 is a BE1?

[xantia_v6]

So, when it comes to XU/DW family engines, are ML5s and BE3s basically interchangeable? Like, I know the shifter system is different and stuff, but all the 'big' stuff like bell housing bolts and mounting point locations, they are all the same?

The ML5 is significantly bigger, Xantias with that box have wider track at the front and slightly bulged wings, so I don't think it would easily fit a 305.

[Old-Guy]

If you need more detailed information download this pdf file.
http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/biuletyny/%28 ... VASION.PDF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gearbox types Xantia (page 184), XM (p.185) and Synergie (p.186) are listed there.

This PDF file should be treated with great care: it is both seriously incomplete (e.g The clutch/Gearbox/Driveshafts section lists only the Autobox for the Xantia 1.9TD and the Xantia 2.1TD isn't listed at all. In fact the 2.1 doesn't get an entry in many other places too.)
It's littered with careless errors (page 124 lists a 2.0TD [XUD11]).

The reader also needs to start with an encyclopedic knowledge of Citroen's different nomenclatures for engines (e.g. to find the engine plates on my Xantias I would need to know that the 1.9TD is an XUD9 engine but the 2.1 is an XUD11, elsewhere I'd also need to know that they are also DHX and P8C engines respectively. Confusing or what?

It does contain some valuable information, but as a guide to which engines/transmissions were fitted in which models used, it's worse than useless.

It appears to have been compiled by a bewildered work-experience student!

[nametooshort]

So, let me get this right. My 305 has a BE1 obviously, since its from 1987 and has reverse up by first.

Whats the difference between a BE1 and a BE3, apart from their shift pattern? Are they otherwise similar?

So, if I wanted to get a XUD11 into my 305 (its what its looking like at the moment), I would have to mate the XUD11 to the BE1 transmission?

I spent a few hours on the FirstLine site making a big list of every car/model/engine/clutch dimensions, and it seems it kind of makes sense, but unfortunately what it does NOT include is many transmission names.

I couldn't export the list as a PDF properly, so I just screen-shooted it, here is the whole list in case somebody wants to read through it. There might be one or two mistakes because I compiled it manually myself.

Part I:


Part II:


Part III:


So, from what I gather looking at that list, the BE1 transmission is what I assume to be the 'ball pivot fork' type used on a few earlier cars, which takes clutch kit number HK6215.

Then it moves to kit HK6216, which is identical except in the notes it says 'cross shaft', and the change point is mostly around the late 80s, so I assume that's the BE3 transmission?

Then they added 0.1mm to the minor diameter of the input shaft but kept the major diameter the same. Then, after building a few of those, they increased the major diameter by 0.1mm also.

And then of course it gets complicated.

Do I understand correctly that the 'pull-out clutch' as found on the 2.1tds is the ML transmission? So, being a pull-out (inside out, kind of like VW Golfs?) style clutch, it would be completely incompatible with push-type clutches? So its not just a case of mix-and-match clutch plates to get the right input shaft to the right plate diameter, its completely different since inside-out clutches and normal clutches are totally different design? And the ML tranny won't fit in the 305 engine bay?

So, basically, it seems the only way to fit a xud11 into a 305 is to use my original BE1 tranny and fit the XUD7 flywheel onto the XUD11 and use the whole complete HK6215 clutch kit?

But, will the xud7 flywheel fit onto the xud11? Or are they not interchangeable? Did the change the crank mating face or something? Or not?

Man, just making my car a 2.1 is bad enough, imagine what it would be like making my buddies 305 a 2.1 auto?

[addo]

If you have an XU engine block (either fuel) the BE1 and BE3 both fit. If there is no change to the left side mount for a randomly chosen model (say P205) then you could say they will bolt up the same to the chassis. I do not think there are driveshaft differences between them in OD or spline profile/count.

Checking the output shaft seal IDs on the ML5T would give a good clue on whether they also have the same spline count. I cannot see PSA using a different spline profile on these boxes - it would be too complicated for negligible gain. The main difference with these seems to be inner and outer CV joint capacity (and thus physical size). Track width increases due to the outer portion of the outer CV being longer. I suspect these use a different bracket and rubber to hang the box from the chassis arm.

The BE3 is a good box; its main weakness is the pinion gears - a Quaife differential will sort you there.

[nametooshort]

There seems to be another advantage to BE transmissions that the MLs don't have. The BEs have a lug sticking out of them, which is leftover from the days of the Talbot Horizon, its where the Horizon's clutch slave cylinder mounted. I used that in my hydraulic clutch conversion on my car. So I guess I am limited to BE 1 or 3 transmissions because of that. I know some other models had hydraulic clutches too, but that would mean changing the whole systems layout and such.

So my problem is almost solved, right? Find a XUD11, bolt it to my original BE1 transmission, and all will be well, I can keep my shifter and my hydraulic clutch and the rest of my car unchanged.

BUT...what to do with the clutch? BE transmissions seem to have a 18-spline input shaft, and MLs have a 21? And the diameters for both don't over-lap.

[xantia_v6]

Just to add to your confusion, the 2.1 fitted to the XM used a ME5 box I think with a cable clutch. The ML5 is always hydraulic clutch.