Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by CitroJim »

KennyW wrote: It is possible to remove the head but there are springs at the back which could fall down causing grief.
Best done with the pump inverted so the distributor head is facing upwards. Easiest way is to make up a bar that bolts onto the bottom jigging holes so it can be firmly held in a vice. Don't even attempt to do this on the car.
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by bigjim »

I have taken two outlets off, one for I needed access to remove those rivet bolts with the Dremel, and then to discover a spring was lying on the engine, which happened to have fallen out the outlet-nozzle. Then some other parts came from the distributor head. In the process of refitting I chose to take another off to see what parts go inside and the order they have to be mounted. Although the above sounds clumsy, I did take good care in arming the two outlet nozzles back. I am always afraid to twist fragile things to hard. After my testdrive my eye was on those as well. I could not see moist around those. Tomorrow I will do some tests tissueing away any diesel residue in order to find the source of my problems. I will also recheck those 4 bolts again that hold the distibutor in its place. 3 of them were taken away in the process and refitted again. Very aware of there function I think I took good care while fitting them. Any knowledge about how long the rings last in a pump using normal diesel? I am wondering why I was not advised to change these rings as well from other sources.

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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Possible silly idea. Clean up the diesel residue in the evening, and paint something like Tipex (or other soluble paint) around the area. Then take her out for a drive the following day, and see what happens. If it works, the diesel should have a result, showing you where the problem is.

This is similar to why older engines were painted. Oil leaks would show up, and hot spots would scorch the paint, showing where it was.
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by bigjim »

I like this idea, it is simular to finding cracks in metal where there is a red ink sprayed onto the suspect area and than later wiped off. Then a white chalky spray is sprayed over and if there is a crack, it appears red inside the chalk. A problem I will have is that there is very little space under the pump, and also difficult to look under it, since my neck is not long and made of rubber (Sadly so). Therefore I am thinking about a tissue or a cloth held there using some string. Since it produces 1 drop per 30 secs I cannot wait to long to check it, since otherwise the diesel will be everywhere.
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by bigjim »

CitroJim wrote:
KennyW wrote: It is possible to remove the head but there are springs at the back which could fall down causing grief.
Best done with the pump inverted so the distributor head is facing upwards. Easiest way is to make up a bar that bolts onto the bottom jigging holes so it can be firmly held in a vice. Don't even attempt to do this on the car.
If you check at about 3 minutes, this is what I have seen to do it in-car:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems possible.
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by bigjim »

Kenny, Citrojim and other boardmembers, just an update on my project with the leaking dieselpump.

In order to stop the leaking of diesel (a double kitchentissue drenched in one minute when the engine runs), I verified if the 4 bolts on the distributor head were loose, they were not. I tried to remove the lower actuator, the torx-bolt close to the radiator came loose without a problem. The back torx did not come loose, despite all my efforts. There is simply no space reserved to have tool there and press it on firmly. Also the bolts are half hight so the torx tool just slips out of it. I therefor took Citrojims notion for face value that you have to take out the dieselpump in order to replace the rubber seals. In order to do that one has to take off the sprocket which is rotated by the toothed drivebelt. In order to take the drivebelt off you have to remove the engine fixture at the right side. You have to take off the plastic cover. The one on the cabin side has a bolt which is terrible to get access to, took me hours to get that one out. I do not have big hands, but small japanese hands would have been an valuable asset. Then I noted that I have to pull off the sprocket of the dieselpump using a metal plate, using M7 Bolts. I made that tool using some metal that I had lying around. Taking off the sprocket with the belt on was tempting. But I decided that two bolts holding the sprocket might be a problem when assembling the dieselpump later. Therefor the drivebelt had to be taken off first. I read somewere that on should only apply brakes firmly and not put a bolt in the flywheel through a hole behind the starter engine. I already had M8 bolts through the both pulleys of the Dieselpump and the Camshaft (Big mistake as it appears later). Although I have gone through this process before I could not remember how I did this before on other occasions. So I asked my son to brake firmly with the gearbox in gear 4. I used a big pipe on my cup-wrench on the pulley bolt of the crankshaft. I noticed that I could turn the tool but it was not loose, I tried this two times more when I concluded that the crankshaft must have turned and the drivebelt hereby slipping over the tooth of the crankshaft pulley, two, three four tooths (???), I do not know for sure. I decided that putting a drillbit through the hole behind the starter engine to be fed into the hole of the flywheel would be the next step to try in order to get the crankshaft pulley bolt loose. I made a tool for this, using some water-copperpipe bent in een s-shape and put a drillbit of finally 6 mm on the end of that one, with the base of the drillbit first to be engaged into the ironcasting. (8 mm and 7 mm would not enter and 6 mm should withstand a force of 4000 kg before it is scissored off, to my calculations. )
I reckoned that I would have to go in reverse a few tooth of the belt in order to get to Top Dead Center. I assumed that with the bolts inside the sprockets of the cam and pump that those were already at TDC ( although I do not have information on that, but it would be logical and helpfull). I removed those fixing bolts of the sprockets to let them rotate again while rotating the crankshaft slightly to find the hole in the flywheel. I could not enter the tool inside the flywheel. While pushing it slightly when I turned the crankshaft I could feel it scraping the surface. Then after 3-4 tooth of rotation I could not continue further turning the crankshaft, it got stuck. I tried to turn it back to the other side and also at about 3 to 4 tooth it got stuck. When it gets stuck I hear a metal sound like Cloooink, as if the gearbox would be engaged, but it is not it is in neutral.....
Question: Is it possible that the sound is produced by the one of the cilinders touching one of the valves? If so, OMG, what do you advise would be the next step. I cannot take the bolt of the crankshaft off until I block the flywheel, but now I cannot find the hole in the flywheel with the limited rotation that is now available to me.
I am really getting nervous here and therefor I would like to ask you and the forum members to shed some mechanical intelligence lighting on my predicament.
The only thing I can come up with now is to put the pulleys of the Camshaft and the dieselpump into the position where I can secure them with the 8 mm bolts. I suppose they are at TDC there, so that would be a nice position, then cut the Drivebelt so the pulleys are not longer hindering the rotation, since the valves are tucked away in the head. Then if this is indeed so, I would be able to turn the crankshaft much further, so I should be able to push a locking drillbit into it at some point of the rotation. Then once blocked by the drillbit, I would apply 4th gear and brake from the inside and then loosen the bolt on the crankshaft.

Who can get me out of the hole here, please advise on what is the best step from the position the engine is in now?
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by KennyW »

Jim,

The belt does not need to be removed to take the fuel pump off.

TDC is when cam sprocket aligns with M8 bolt hole along with pump sprocket M8 bolts holes and flywheel hole which is 8mm dia.

The flywheel hole is PITA to find but if you have the cam Sprocket and Fuel pump sprocket roughly Near TDC careful moving of the crankshaft with a socket, you will locate the timing hole in the flywheel.

You can be 180 degrees out. I can't remember but I think t s 2 turns of crankshaft to 1 of camshaft or visa versa. Other members will confirm it.

The BOL (haynes manual) is actually accurate in its description of setting TDC.

I don't think I have photos of the set up.

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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by bigjim »

Hello Kenny, thanks for your patience and support in this,

With the crankshaft now misaligned due to slippage of the Drivebelt, I have to correct this, best to do this by removing it, although maybe not necessary. Having everything off it is a good thing to replace the timingbelt, considering the efforts involved for a next time. Thinking about it, I feel quite sure that I am actually hitting the valves, indicated by the cloink noise (I am slowly by hand doing turning the crank using the cup tool, very slowly).
I think that maybe the best way forward is to rotate the crankshaft pulley bolt in the other direction, as if tightening it again, with 8 mm securing bolts inside the Cam-pulley and Dieselpump, and then after each tooth of slippage test if I can now turn the crankshaft without any terrible noises. Before that I will try again to find the hole in the flywheel. If this is a PITA (nice acronym by the way), maybe I missed it. Due to the 4 stroke engine principle two turns of the crankshaft is half a rotation on the pulleys of the cam and pump. So having the securing bolts fitted through the holes inside the pulleys must mean that it is in TDC, right???
I am wondering if one can see from the outside that the flywheel is in TDC. When I had my old Simca 1100, I used to use a stroboscope onto the flywheel and there used to be an inspection opening in allowing me to see the flywheel and its TDC mark. I believe not to have seen this, maybe I have to take all the plastic covers off over which the electrical cabling runs in order to see that inspection hole?
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by KennyW »

Jim,

The timing hole is behind the starter motor and s very difficult to see but if you wish to remove the starter motor for better a better view and access you can.

If you can remove the timing belt with cam and pump locked, you could refit crank sprocket and turn fly wheel until timing hole is found. Take care when turning crank sprocket must be done slowly. Obviously if starter is removed much easier to see.

Good Luck,

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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by bigjim »

Kenny,
I think I have found the round hole, I was wondering if there is an inpection hole where you can see the flywheel and the TDC mark passing by like this one: http://pics.tdiclub.com/members/drivbiw ... 2138AA.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by Xaccers »

BigJim stop!
I've read the block of text above as best I can and it appears that you're thinking of using the timing holes as locks so you can undo the crank bolt.
NOOOOOOOOOOO!
They are timing holes, and that is all. If you try to lock the engine with them you're likely to do some serious damage.

If your crank pulley has skipped belt teeth by you turning it with the cam and pump pulleys locked, then probably the "easiest" way of sorting it is to take the belt off, remove the cam cover, remove the cam so the pistons can turn without hitting the cam, then set the timing on the crank, re-fit the cam in it's timed position which is a PITA! and then fit a new waterpump and belt.

What you took a photo of is NOT the flywheel timing hole.
The timing hole is in the side of the flywheel, hidden behind the starter motor between some of the vanes of the block.
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by bigjim »

Hello Xac,
Thanks for your response in this issue. I did not try to use the timing holes as locks to undo the crank bolt. I had somebody in the car pushing the brakes. Apparently the gear was NOT shifted in 4th gear as I requested.

So, the crankshaft was not stopped in its rotation and because of the fact I had the bolts inside the timing holes at the pulleys the drivebelt did slip over the tooth of the inner toothed pulley. It did not occur to me that this happened and I tried to push the big lever on the cup-tool a few times more. Since the bolt was not loose after this, it came to me what was in fact going on. I then removed the timing hole bolts and moved the crankshaft with the cup tool back on forth relative to the position it was in with the bolts. This with a 6 mm drill pushing through the hole behind the starter motor onto the flywheel hoping it would find the corresponding hole in the flywheel which should be a TDC. I could not find that hole in the flywheel by pushing and wiggling the 6mm drill. Therefor I asked myself if there was not another way to see TDC at the flywheel from the outside. The photo I gave a link of is not taken by me. I found this photo as an illustration of my question if such an inspection hole in the casting of the gearbox was also present in the XUD engine in the Xantia.

Yes, it was a bad idea to leave the bolts in the timing holes, since now the timing in between the camshaft/pump relative to the crankshaft is gone. So when moving the crankshaft back and forth I notice that I hear a cloink sound, of which I dread it is produced by a piston touching a valve.

So I have to get out of the hole I am in now. So in order to enter a stopping pin (drill-bit in my case) to the hole in the flywheel via the hole behind the starter motor, I reckoned I have to try to get back to the original position of the crankshaft tooth-pulley relative to the belt. So I turned the cup-tool clockwise again, with the position bolts inside the Cam and Pump pulley. Slowly returning intentionaly let the belt slip over the lower crankpulley. I marked the original (wrong) position of the crankpulley, so I know how much I am rotating. I did this one tooth displacement at the time. The amount of force to accomplish this is not to high I think to damage the upper pulleys. The are made of machined steel and should be able to handle some force. After each tooth of displacement I unscrewed the positioning bolts and tried to go counter clock wise and clock wise to find the hole at the flywheel, or to see the mark on the flywheel via the inspection hole. (The Xantia appears to have one!). I did this repetatively for 1 tooth, 2 teeth, 3 and 4 teeth displacement without success. At some point in the rotation I get to a stop while hearing a cloink sound. The only thing I achieve is that this point is reached earlier at one side relative to the position indicated by the positioning bolts. I have made a video recording of this movement which is available on youtube




so if anyone has an idea of what is going on it would be appreciated.


Xac: the solution you are providing is very drastic I suppose, I am wondering if I do not get deeper into trouble.
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by KennyW »

JIm,

You've done what I would have done to try and find the timing hole on the fly wheel.

I cannot think of any other way. Xac is right they only way to resolve this is to remove cam shaft.

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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by bigjim »

Hello Kenny and Xac,
Thanks for the responses again. Going the cam shaft removal route, is this possible with the engine in the car. I do not have a crane to take the engine out. I noticed that the engine is turned with its cilinderhead towards the cabin and I dread that I cannot access the bolts holding down the shaft onto the head. Any experience with this procedure?
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Re: Replacement of housing-seal of Bosch VE Dieselpump

Post by CitroJim »

The camshaft is easy to remove Jim. Just clear enough space so you can remove the cam cover and then loosen carefully and a bit at a time and in order the cam bearing caps. Loosen so as to place no stress on either those or the camshaft.

You may not need to though. Although the flywheels sprocket hole is hard to find, it's a lot easier to do if you remove the starter motor - which is easier to do than the cam - and then carefully rotate the crank until it goes tight, rotate a bit back, move the camshaft and move the crank a bit more. It's time-consuming but can be done by moving both a little at a time until correct timing is achieved.

Timing is absolutely critical on these engines and it's vital you find that hole in the flywheel.

I've done just this several times on engines that have lost their timing.

If you do remove the cam, be aware the outer cam bearing caps need to have new sealant applied to their faces to prevent subsequent oil leaks. The sealant goes between the cap and the cylinder head surface - it'll be obvious.
Jim

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