Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

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isisalar
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Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Hi guys
Having changed all the spheres bar the 2 rear corners, which seem fine, and finally got the suspension working as it should I've now ordered some genuine P bushes £72, picking up today.
However, this last week the rear suspension has gone hard again and seems to be riding a bit low. It feels to me like the centre/accumulator has failed, harsh over small bumps, fine over big bumps, the front's fine, I think.
Other symptoms are:-
Car sinks at the rear almost instantly on stopping, a few inches.
Car sinks almost completely overnight front and rear.
Rear seems to come up to correct height when starting but then drops a couple of inches.
Sit in the boot test is good with engine running but sinks only with engine off, doesn't even try to rise.
Tried the hold up on the brakes test and after about 30 secs the brakes let go completely.
If holding the car on the brakes on a slight incline the car will sink at the rear, I think when the brakes are taken off, it then comes up to 'normal' height.
The car has always sunk a little overnight and when the 2 rear centers were replaced this didn't change at all. It has got worse recently.
The car dropped to it's present height shortly before the rear centers were replaced and went back to normal when they were IIRC. I'd assumed one of the old spheres had failed.

This has really thrown a spanner in the works, the tracking must be done, £40, after the P bushes, and it wouldn't be possible with the car as it is, so this needs to be sorted asap.
The center and anti sink spheres were both from GSF about 3 months ago and it would seem that one or both of them have failed. I've now got to try and get a replacement from GSF with no receipt and pay to have the job done again, before I can get the P bushes done.
From the above can anyone say which sphere is the likely culprit, or could it be something else?
One other thing that may be relevant, I tried a bounce test on the front yesterday and 2 things struck me as a bit odd, I might be imagining things though. Nice and soft but bounced back twice before settling, and I'm sure I saw the back rise up as the front was pushed down.
One step forward two steps backwards but I'm determined to get this all sorted.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by Mandrake »

I hate to say it Paul because I know we've already debated the possibility in another thread recently :twisted: but I'm almost positive from your description that your rear suspension is staying in hard mode 99% of the time, and that it explains the majority of your symptoms.

And more specifically it sounds like the suspension switches to soft mode for the half second during which the electrovalve is pulsed on with a full 12 volts, but is then falling back to hard mode during the rest of the time when its only receiving an average of about 3 volts. So you end up in soft mode for half a second during a hard->soft transition but in hard mode all the rest of the time.

This is actually a very common failure mode for the hydractive system, the back EMF diode failing causes these exact symptoms however I have sometimes seen it when the diode is ok - I'm not certain why but a high resistance dry joint in the coil assembly on the electrovalve or a mechanical problem with the movement of the needle valve are my two pet theories. (On one dodgy valve re-tensioning one of the springs inside the valve seemed to help)
isisalar wrote:However, this last week the rear suspension has gone hard again and seems to be riding a bit low. It feels to me like the centre/accumulator has failed, harsh over small bumps, fine over big bumps, the front's fine, I think.
The difference in ride quality between a hydractive system sticking in hard mode and a hydractive regulator sphere being punctured is almost nill, the only way to tell for sure which of the two it is is to fit a known good sphere, however if your sphere is only 3 months old its VERY unlikely to be the culprit. If you have a spare accumulator sphere you can fit that temporarily and see if your hard ride goes away.

Other symptoms are:-
Car sinks at the rear almost instantly on stopping, a few inches.
If the system is sticking in hard mode for 99% of the time, the pressure between the inner and outer spheres will not be equalised (the inner regulator sphere is completely cut off during hard mode except for a very low leakage which takes hours to equalize)

When you turn off the ignition key the ECU quickly cycles the suspension from soft to hard and back to soft again, this is easily seen when an LED is connected to the electrovalve signal. If your rear suspension is only going to soft during the full 12v phase of operation during a hard->soft transition that means when you turn the key off your suspension will mechanically go from being stuck in hard mode to switching to soft for half a second then back to hard.

If there is a pressure imbalance between the inner and outer spheres this will cause the height to abruptly fall or rise depending on which side has greater pressure. This one symptom alone points strongly towards malfunctioning hard/soft switching, as I've seen this exact symptom with a faulty diode.
Rear seems to come up to correct height when starting but then drops a couple of inches.
Again, this is classic symptoms of malfunctioning hard/soft switching. Both my Xantia's have done this intermittently, both at the rear. I have not seen a non-Hydractive Xantia do this. I don't know for sure whether its the electrovalve sticking or only marginally switching, or a problem in the control block itself, but rest assured this is definitely a hard/soft switching problem.
Sit in the boot test is good with engine running but sinks only with engine off, doesn't even try to rise.
If the suspension is stuck in hard mode it won't move much when you sit on it so may not move enough to trigger the height corrector, especially if the height corrector linkage itself is a bit sticky.

Failing that either the main accumulator sphere is flat, (not likely if you've replaced it recently) or there is a pressure leak in the system that is causing main pressure to be rapidly lost after the engine is turned off. A faulty electrovalve can cause a rapid pressure loss, sometimes only in the "on" position, sometimes only in the off position, depending on which end of the needle valve is damaged. My front one in my previous Xantia was very leaky when in the on mode and I eventually had to replace it.

One way you can check for rapid pressure loss after the engine is switch off is this:

1) Make sure hard/soft switching is working properly at the front and that you can tell the difference between bouncing the front when its hard and when its soft.

2) Leave the drivers door open with the engine running then turn off the engine and start your stop watch.

3) Bounce the front suspension - it should be soft.

4) Every 30 seconds bounce it again and see if its still soft or whether it has gone hard. Because the door is open the electrovalve will stay on for 30 minutes, however when the system pressure drops below suspension pressure the suspension will go hard as there is no pressure available to keep it in the soft mode. Just bounce the suspension, don't sit on it as that will use up pressure reserve.

5) On a good car it should stay soft for over 5 minutes after the engine is turned off. Average would be 1-2 minutes, poor would be less than one minute.
Tried the hold up on the brakes test and after about 30 secs the brakes let go completely.
Nothing wrong with that. :) When you use the brakes to hold the rear suspension too high, the height corrector will start letting pressure out of the suspension in an attempt to compensate the height. The same pressure is supplying the rear brakes! As pressure is removed more of the cars weight is supported by the brakes, but the available brake pressure is dropping. At some point it will be forced to let go.
If holding the car on the brakes on a slight incline the car will sink at the rear, I think when the brakes are taken off, it then comes up to 'normal' height.
I wouldn't worry about this.
The car has always sunk a little overnight and when the 2 rear centers were replaced this didn't change at all. It has got worse recently.
Mine sinks to about half way between normal ride height and fully down over night and then stays at that height without any further loss for days. As far as I'm aware this is normal and isn't anything to worry about. One thing you learn about Citroen's is the amount they sink overnight has a strong random element to it! :lol: Unless its going down to the bump stops don't worry about it.
The car dropped to it's present height shortly before the rear centers were replaced and went back to normal when they were IIRC. I'd assumed one of the old spheres had failed.
The condition of the spheres and even the hard/soft switching of the hydractive system have no bearing on the ride height whatsoever. If the ride height settles too low when the engine is idling and the car is sitting still then the height corrector linkage is a bit sticky, plain and simple.

Mine is the same - sometimes the rear settles a bit too low, sometimes it settles a bit too high, up to 20mm either way. I know its a sticky linkage, I just haven't decided to tackle it yet. And yes I can notice it when I'm driving too - sometimes it feels like the rear is a bit low and nudging the bump stops over large bumps and sometimes its fine. It's just because the height corrector is not maintaining the ride height precisely and consistently.
One other thing that may be relevant, I tried a bounce test on the front yesterday and 2 things struck me as a bit odd, I might be imagining things though. Nice and soft but bounced back twice before settling, and I'm sure I saw the back rise up as the front was pushed down.
A small amount of overshoot when settling after bounce test in the soft mode seems to be normal - the damping is fairly gentle in the soft mode, but it should not oscillate twice. That suggests that maybe the wrong strut spheres are fitted.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
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isisalar
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Well Simon, now you've given me a headache trying to digest all that. Being a complete electrical dunce I'll concentrate on the mechanical side of things first.
It would seem then the first priority must be to lube up the height control linkages, and eliminate the center sphere from the equation. Given that both my local indys want £30+vat for each job I've decided to bite the bullet and get a lifting kit, probably this one :- http://www.gsfcarparts.com/987aa1660" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; so I can do these jobs myself and expand the range of jobs I can do. It's cheaper to buy a new sphere than to get the old one tested, and I can probably do some sort of deal with GSF.
Would I be right in saying that a good dose of Plusgas followed by a liberal application of spray grease over the linkages is the way to do it?
If it is the rear electrovalve faulty I assume that my shiny new lifting kit will get me access to it, so what's involved, are they terribly expensive, and what's this diode mod?
I had one go at the open door bounce test on the front and what I found was:- the car seemed marginally stiffer with the engine running, the first bounce was very very soft,the next one slightly harder but still soft, this remained consistent, at three minutes the travel was reduced noticeably, I presume this was hard coming in.
Regarding the sit in boot test, there's no lack of travel, engine on or off it's the same and it feels fairly soft. Engine on rises rapidly at 9 secs, engine off zilch.
Re. the holding up on the brakes test, I did this many times when trying to rid the system of the bubbles and when it let go then it would be a gradual process with a lot of noise from the pads and gravity finally winning out and the car would slowly descend. I assumed this was the bubble mix not being up to the job, and indeed the brakes have improved massively since the pump repair. Now they just let go like a punctured balloon after about 30 secs.
This hardness in the rear is exactly the opposite of that which happened when I was on holiday. Then it seemed that the center sphere was working and the corners weren't, now it seems the corners are working and the center isn't. IIRC the center sphere had a fill date making it about three years old when fitted.
Going to phone up GSF shortly and try and get this sorted out, wish me luck.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Hi guys
Well it seems that i have just got on the bottom rung of a ladder in the Citroen game. GSF, without any quibble, agreed to give me a full refund on the old sphere, when it's returned after removal, and got me a new one in within 2 hrs, which of course I had to pay for. So 10 out of ten to GSF for customer service. The lifting kit they had in stock.
I wasn't able to get any spray Plusgas, only a can, and quickly finished off the spray can I did have, cleaning up the height corrector linkage, I did what I could in the failing light and gave it quick dose of spray grease, intending to continue this morning. A test drive showed no difference in the ride. Went to the local £1 shop this morning to get some WD40 and the rear was probably softer than at any time since I've had the car, it stayed at the correct height for the time I was in the shop and rode beautifully on the journey home, height still ok. I then did a sit in the boot test, engine running, the car sank as normal and then carried on sinking very slowly and gently, further than normal, and then after about 30 secs started to rise up, previously it would rise after less than 10 secs. It lifted when I got out and then sank back very low and then came up to a low, arch covering tyre, height. Test drive showed rear hard again but variable.
So it would appear that the linkage sticking is the root of the problem and on the face of it the center sphere may well be ok and not need changing after all. I'd like to get the linkage eliminated from the equation before making the decision.
If it wasn't hissing down with rain this morning I'd be playing with my new lifting kit, love the creeper, and finishing off the clean up and lube job. Can anyone point me in the direction of any posts/video's/photos on this subject, there are a few on u tube but not that much help really. With the car on axle stands what's the best height to have the suspension set at, or is it best to clean it up in all settings?
Now I've got the kit, next DIY job, Droplinks!
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

You cannot adjust the height while the car is up on stands. You can only make meaningful adjustments when the car is supporting her weight on her wheels (so the height correctors, etc. can do their job properly). This means either using ramps, a workpit, or a car lift that works on the wheels. There must be enough space (with the car set to service low) for you to be able to move safely under the car. When I was adjusting Gracies' front height, she was up on ramps. On the first adjustment I made she dropped all the way down. Once she stopped her sump was lightly touching my chest. Watching her drop towards me was unnerving, to say the least.

Once you have the car safely and properly supported with enough height to work under her, you can make a start. With the engine running, and the height set to normal, the rule of thumb is this; three finger widths between the wheel and arch at the front, and one finger width at the rear. There is a far more accurate measurement, but the finger method is normally good enough.

What you will be doing is to adjust the clamp position on the anti roll bars. I cannot be certain, but I think you will need a 10mm spanner. Loosen the clamp, and move it slightly, then wait. It takes about 5 seconds for the hydro pneumatics to react. Wait until the car has finished moving, and then check the height. It can take time to get it right. Small tweaks can have large results. Once you are happy with the height, tighten up the clamps, and you should be good to go.
James
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Not trying to adjust the height thanks Hellrazor, I'm pretty sure that's set right, as per this morning's journey to the pound shop, perfect ride in every way. What I'm trying to do is free off the sticky mechanism, without any further luck so far. I worked some Plusgas into the dog bone and surrounding area with a brush this evening and I'm leaving it to soak overnight.
Fingers crossed for the morning.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Afternoon guys, now I really need some advice please. To re cap, car is riding low at the rear with hard ride, a quick rear height corrector linkage lube up, after being left overnight, resulted in a perfect ride, with the rear height of the car also being spot on. After a sit in the boot test it was riding low, and hard, at the back again. So spent the best part of yesterday further cleaning up and lubing,with no improvement. Eventually gave it a good dose of Plusgas applied with a brush and left overnight. 1st job today I gave it a good citrobics session to work in the plusgas and then a dose of spray grease after a wipe over. Still no improvement.
The first time it was set to high during this mornings citrobics session, the low LHM light came on,I checked the float and yes the level was low, it took about 1/2 litre to top up. Obviously I checked for leaks, and no green puddles anywhere. The last time I checked it was about 2 weeks ago when the brakes were bled. No sign of the light yesterday during many settings on high. Where has 1/2 litre of LHM gone overnight, some blockage or air lock moved?
In order to observe the heights I just did a hang in the rear door opening test, after letting the car settle at it's now too low running height, when the weight's applied it sinks down and then rises to the correct height, one finger, when the weight's removed it rises to 3 fingers and then drops down to the too low height. Arch covering tread.
The height was set last winter. Given that it seems to know where it should be at least some of the time what does this point to? The initial lubing produced the desired result so is there some further work needed on the linkage, or is this pointing towards a blockage inside the corrector? It would appear that it will rise to the right height and stay there, but only after a second loading, all very weird. Surely the improvement after the first lube can't be coincidence?
I'd ruled out the center sphere and Simon's electrovalve theory as the ride was so good at first yesterday, but the engine off sit in boot test today immediately after switching off resulted in a half hearted attempt to rise which it eventually managed, leaving it 1/2hr, no reaction at all. Is it worth changing this anyway? I don't suppose the lubing could have had any effect on the electrovalve?
Sorry to bombard you with all these questions chaps but I don't know what to do next, got to get this sorted before the P bushes go on.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I would then suggest a sticking mechanism. They are (somewhat) exposed, and so they can collect dirt and grime, which then can affect how the height adjuster moves. This link shows how to clean and lube them;

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 19&t=27122" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If it is just a problem at the rear, the H/C is (apparently) easier to access and remove. Good luck.

If you want to go further, take a look here;

http://www.eastment.net/hcrefurb/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
James
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Thanks a lot for those links Hellrazor I've now got a good understanding of how it all works but I think removing the whole thing is a bit beyond me without a ramp and that's a job i will leave to a specialist. With my track record I'd probably do something stupid and leave myself car less. Loved Jim's refurb post, very tempted if I had a spare one to work on.
The good news is that the supple ride has returned a few times today, notably after going over a very rough bit of road, so it seems that the lubing up is wearing in and having some effect, it seems to be riding at about the right height, doesn't rise quickly when I get out any more, but consistently drops to the very low height after rising when the weight is removed from the boot.
The time it takes to start to rise is varying from almost instantly to as much as 30 secs.
Is there anything I can do to assist the wearing in process apart from driving over that bit of rough road repeatedly. I'm quite prepared to do some further cleaning/lubing of the linkage in situ, is there anywhere to concentrate specially or anything super effective, brake cleaner or similar?
I had considered that the missing LHM was just about about a sphere's worth Superloopy but the ride seems to be fine occasionally so I'm really at a loss to explain it, anti sink sphere?
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Well it looks like the mysteriously changing rear end problem has been identified at last. As the lubrication had made a partial improvement, the ride sometimes like a hovercraft and sometimes like a go cart, it was booked in to BL auto's to thoroughly lube the height corrector up. They immediately, on inspection, diagnosed that the plastic bearing/bush on the shaft of the spring loaded part attached to the dog bone has failed, not repairable, need a replacement. Thankfully citroen xm will have one available soon.
So there still remains the mystery of why the car fails to respond to the sit in the boot test if the engine is not running. My worry is losing the brakes too quickly if the engine cuts out. I have ruled out the rear accumulator and corner spheres as the ride is so good when the car is occasionally at the correct height, can't hear any rapid ticking from the main accumulator, this only leaves the anti sink sphere. Does this make sense or does this point to Simon's electrovalve theory. If it is the valves, is this a good idea? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-XANTI ... 2ea5803ac6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Sounds like an easy fix.
Still to get the p bushes done, and I was advised to change the front bush as well on the o/s. This should be here Wednesday. Is it much extra work to change this front bush? I'm minded to get the n/s one as well and be done with it once and for all.
Cheers guys
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by citroenxm »

The sit in boot will only respond with engine off if the FRONT accumilator sphere is in good order.

The rear "anti sink sphere" just not just that at all. Its actually a rear brake pressure reserve sphere and has no bearing on the rear height..

Two things need to be good for the sit on boot to work correctly.. nice free to move rear linkage arms and a good front engine mounted accumilator sphere.

The lever in the car and the automatic ride links use two different arms on the height corrector cradle.. so even if you have the car responding well to the lever in the car adjustments the other lever attached to the plastic clip there for the anti roll ar also needs to be nice and free...
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Silly question, but how many spheres does your Xantia have? If it has 6, then (as far as I am aware) you won't have any electro valves; it's purely mechanical in its suspension. 8 means you will have the electro valves. I cannot offer any advice on those.
James
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ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by citroenxm »

Electro valves wont affect the Sit on the Boot either UNLESS hard mode makes the car go ROCK SOLID, with therefore no movment at all to test the rear movment.

I can still sit on my boot with engine off and get some movment, even with tired spheres, and mines hydractive too..

Looking at Pauls Signiture, the HDi engine'd xantia he has is an Exclusive, so it WILL have hydractive with 8 sphere inc accumilator sphere and rear brake reserve sphere.
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Boot is nice and soft engine on or off so not stuck in hard. I'm going to have a good listen again to the front accumulator tomorrow, it was only replaced a few months ago though.
The linkage seems to be perfectly able to work sufficiently with the engine running so there must be a lack of pressure I guess.
Thanks guys
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
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Re: Snakes and ladders with the HDI Xantia

Post by isisalar »

Hi guys
Well up a good few rungs and then back down a snake again.
In the event I got both of the front bushes, as well as the P bushes and arranged to have the whole lot done this morning. The first arm came off OK but on the second one the grinder had to come out to remove the droplink. These were second on the list to do after the height corrector, but faced with having to get one anyway, I said to get the other one and then it's all done. Being the gentlemen they are I wasn't charged any extra labour for this. The car is totally transformed now and I'm very happy I've finally got the front end fully sorted at last.
HOWEVER, They spotted that my front discs are too thin and too small in diameter. The brakes have never felt as good on this one as the previous two I've had and this is obviously the reason why. I thought I was being a very gentle driver as no lip has appeared on them since I've had it, the pads are bigger than the discs!The pads aren't very worn but they're going to need replacing with the discs as they won't be flat. A Quick check on GSF shows I'm in for north of £100 for the discs and pads even if I buy online. At least it's a job I can do myself now.
Anyone got any advice where and what to buy, and what diameter they should be? GSF list 288mm, and pads £53! Being an estate HDI IIRC they're an unusual size.
I've checked up on the accumulator and it's ticking at about 2 minutes, engine off not a glimmer of rising after 10 mins, very puzzling.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
02 Saxo 1.1i desire wife's present car(sadly now very ill cambelt gone- Doh)
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