Conrod failure

[citronut]

I can't believe oil would stress the engine components in this short a time (5 weeks /1000miles) if the wrong motor oil was used given the many discussions about the use of fully syn/ semi syn/ etc...

the point of type of oil used could be your stumbling block with the main dealer,
because if the manufacturers specified oil was and possibly OE filter were not used they have a get out clause!!!!,

Have told dealership we are contemplating our next move and seeking advice. I'm trying to find out who I can ask as an independant verifier to ensure impartiality.

were is the car at the present time, if at the dealerships workshop they could and possibly will cover up any incriminating evidence of there possible wrong doing

[Old-Guy]

If parts are thrown away by the dealership, don't give up. On the contrary, this would greatly strengthen your case. The legal system takes a very dim view of key evidence being destroyed before it can be examined by experts.

I speak from experience of a case where the defendant had 'lost' several computer logs that would have settled the matter one way or the other. Once it had been established that the logs covering the crucial couple of days had gone missing, the defence case was lost.

[Gethro]

Thanks citronut. That's exactly what citroen/dealership are suggesting ie. wrong oil.
Unfortunately the car is in the dealership at present. If they have opened up the engine before I can get an independent inspection I'm sure we'd be able to tell?? I say this as nearly 3 weeks on I'm led to believe they haven't done a thorough inspection and no one has disputed our original mechanics view that the conrod came through the engine.
As I've said I'm now trying to find someone to carry out an independent inspection but I've just had another thought. Will Citoen/deals hip acknowledge this report or just throw it out? Will need to establish this too.

[addo]

Citroën UK do not seem to get a good rap for "doing the right thing".

You can potentially waste too much time waiting for people to conduct themselves thus; your moves now should be more towards independent assessment and a consumer claim. The claimant starts in the right; the defendant has to justify their position. Do not involve the media unless you have a good grasp of how they work (in other words, a snake-handling permit is required).

You should make sure issues like the following, are able to be addressed faithfully; a consumer hearing will then be very likely to decide in your favour (note there is no need to answer these questions here, they are just a checklist):

1. Who are you claiming against, and why them?
2. Why would a reasonable person make that claim?
3. Is your claim for fair compensation?
4. Have the defendants had a chance to restore your prior situation?

Be careful with statements such as "I need the car for work" as if it's not insured as a commercial vehicle, this sort of thing can lead to unpicking of your fidelity.

At this point, with the garage's stonewalling, if you decide they are the most appropriate defendants you might be seeking a complete exchange motor from Citroën, installed by another franchised dealer of your nomination.

[myglaren]

In addition to addo's excellent advice, if you are a member of the AA or RAC they can provide an independent engineer's report and may be able to offer legal assistance and advice.

[citronut]

Will Citoen/deals hip acknowledge this report or just throw it out? Will need to establish this too.

if it is an authorised engineer in this field the dealer will not be able to dispute there findings

[howiedean]

If there is any question about the right/wrong oil being used you are going to have to get that checked first especially if you haven't got a receipt. For piece of mind an oil check might point you in the right direction as to why the engine let go?
I've not had an oil analysis done before however they don't seem too expensive : http://www.theoillab.co.uk/fuel-testing?Pid=12&Sid=21" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There are plenty across the country and there might be a place close to you?

Insurance wise your OK for social domestic and pleasure, commuting to and from work. Anything else and you need extra cover.
As I've said and other people have said you need to get some legal advise now. Check your insurance/breakdown cover, failing that try citizens advise bureau or maybe a solicitor that is offering a free 1/2 hour initial consultation.

Whatever you do from this point on, don't dick about and make sure everything is written down!

Howie

[411514]

Without wishing to put a downer on your pursuits, I think ill advised legal action should be your last resort as the cost to you both in terms of cash and stress would probably negate any benefit.

In terms of launching an action against Citroen UK/Dealership the burden of proof lies squarely with the plaintiff, it is definitively not the case that the defendant has to provide any explanation of their conduct. The presumption of non-fault is a benefit quite rightly enjoyed by the defendant. It would be your duty to prove that, on the balance of probabilities, the damages you wish to seek are due in remedy for their unreasonable conduct (judged not with respect to the mythical reasonable man but of an expert in the field). Given the above it would be highly unadvisable to follow this path.
In terms or conducting your own testing or interpretation of the nature of the fault by an engineer the end value of this should not be overestimated and the likely costs in terms of presenting any relevant information gained not forgotten. Independent examinations of components/oil are of limited reliability as clearly that chain of causality is hard to prove.

I do not mean the above to be dis-heartening in terms of your chances of having the car repaired at no cost, as it does seem highly suspicious that remedial work on the affected area had only very recently been completed. However I'm sure that in this instance your best course of action is to engage in constructive dialogue with Citroen UK in terms of bettering the existing goodwill gesture. Ultimately if you have the time to spend, persistence here is likely to put your car back on the road in the shortest time. Alternatively is the garage industry in your locale (Scotland?), regulated by an industry body (maybe someone here can advise). Most industries have trade bodies whose job it is to regulate their members and may be able to influence negotiations for you.

[RichardW]

I expect to get flamed for this, but.....sadly I think you are on a hiding to nothing. The car has a 3 year warranty and failed at 3 years PLUS 37 days. I realise that's very annoying for you and your wallet but it is nonetheless 37 days outside of the warranty period. Any hubub about the subsequent oil change is just that - hubub - the car is out of warranty - and an incorrect oil is not going to cause it throw a rod - run the big ends or mains, or ruin the turbo, maybe, but not throw a rod. Citroen have more than met their obligations under the warranty (ie none!) by offering 70% of the parts (substantial no doubt) - without even, apparently, having examined in detail the failure. There will be a substantial additional cost in dealer labour to fit the replacement engine. So your only hope for further redress is to be able to prove that the repair work contributed to the failure, and claim against the dealer for substandard work. For this you will need the bits of the failed conrod inspected - and if the failure is anywhere other than at the big end bolts, then you have no case. It may well be worth paying for an hour's labour to get the sump taken off and pics taken of the damaged rod, as that will at least let you know where and what the failure is, and whether there is any mileage in taking it further.

You need to weigh up the costs of 30% of the engine plus fitting at dealer prices, vs sourcing a 2nd hand engine and getting an indie to fit it, swallow hard and move on in life - the stress of trying to get something back which will most likely end in a dead end, is almost certainly not worth it, I'm afraid.

[Gibbo2286]

Unless you have modified this engine or have been using it for sport, rallying or such I think you have a claim, not against Citroen but against the dealer/repairer.
Connecting rods in modern cars don't fail unless there's an inherent fault in the materials or the fitter has messed up the re-assembling.

Misuse by the driver i.e. driving with low oil or continuing to drive after the engine starts knocking are a possibility of course but the repairer would have to have some evidence of that before he could use it as a defence.

In your shoes I would get an estimate from another repairer to put the car back into serviceable condition, present that estimate to your repairer together with a written notice that if they don't respond within seven days with a satisfactory/acceptable offer you will issue a small claims court summons for damages of that amount.
Don't bluff, go online and get the claims form from the court office and if they don't respond issue the summons, it will cost you a small fee to do but it puts the ball firmly in their lap, they will either have to come up with a defence or pay up.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/small-claims#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Gethro]

Thanks all for your both helpful and detailed responses. We are in two minds but I have come to realise that legal action isn't going to benefit us and will leave us financially and mentally drained.
We have a couple of options to explore now and we'll consider their merits (we have a running history of events and discussions):-
1. Engage in more constructive dialogue with citroen uk and try and understand the offer made, why it was given so quickly, why they havn't pushed their request for the dealer to provide evidence that the work was done and done to citroens requiremennts (then retracted by their own technical team) and try and establish if they too have concerns over the workmanship of the recall works (cant see them going against their dealer).
2. Find out if they'll still honour their goodwill if we remove car from our local dealer and take to another citroen approved garage. In doing this we should be able to ask them to retain all component parts for inspection and although we will have to pay (hopefully for the same/less than what we are currently expecting) there may be recourse if we can establish if shells were indeed replaced at recall or if they were unusually worn, etc...... Some little nugget that may point to workmanship
3. Take dealership up on their now offer to trade this car in and take another car(don't want to give them the satisfaction though and we'd mostly likely not benefit even if we dig heals in.)
4. Go to dealership head office but they've al closed ranks now so probably lost cause but at least if we go to step 5 we'll have given them ample opportunity to remedy what we believe is their issue.
5. Take CAB advise and commence writing before threatening legal advice. Must admit though we agree with some posts here that this shouldn't be entered into lightly.

Appreciate all comments and honesty however bad!

[neil123]

For me, you are arguing from a difficult position! Warranties do expire, there has to be a cut-off somewhere. Goodwill is just that, and for Citroen to be prepared to offer 70% of parts when you went outside the dealer network at the first opportunity strikes me as reasonable. I'm not sure I can see how the recall work can last several thousand miles, then go bang... anything I can imagine them doing wrong would have failed long ago I suspect. Proving otherwise is a slim hope!

However - so far the garage hasn't offered anything themselves. I suspect they may be open to negotiation, if you act in a conciliatory way, rather than threatening court action.

Ask to see the dealer principal, (not the service manager) and explain your thoughts. Think of something achievable - for example, labour AT COST is probably less than a quarter of the retail rate, (accepting all the fixed costs are already paid by whatever work they already have, the marginal extra cost of doing this is basically the fitter's wages.)

So - success, for me, would look like Citroen paying 70% parts - ( ie forgoing their profit, they wont be taking much if any loss.)

Garage - labour at cost. Ask how many HOURS this is going to take - then ask for that number of hours at cost as THEIR goodwill - make it clear you mean the marginal cost - ie you pay the fitters wages, not a proportion of the cost of everything on site - after all, that is already there. Reasonable, I think to expect them not to take a profit on this, to make you a happy customer OF THEIRS again. Citroen have done their bit, garage could well be persuaded to do theirs, then you do YOURS - pay the rest without demur, and BE A HAPPY CUSTOMER - not a grudgingly accepting one! If they stand by you on this, they're worth buying your next car (and service!!) from. If they don't, clearly they aren't, and you'd be a brand ambassador for them, just not in a good way!

Try talking to the dealer principal - he has a lot invested in his reputation locally, ask him to work with you on this.


Hope that helps - many years ago I was a Volvo service manager.

[triumphtoledo]

Isnt the oil change interval for the 1.4HDi 12,500 miles?

If that is the case and it has had endured 20k between changes, I dont see why Citroen should stump up...

[neil123]

2002 - 06/2012 1.4 diesel (Euro 4) 20,000 miles or 2 years

According to Citroen service website

[howiedean]

Unless you have modified this engine or have been using it for sport, rallying or such I think you have a claim, not against Citroen but against the dealer/repairer.
Connecting rods in modern cars don't fail unless there's an inherent fault in the materials or the fitter has messed up the re-assembling.

Misuse by the driver i.e. driving with low oil or continuing to drive after the engine starts knocking are a possibility of course but the repairer would have to have some evidence of that before he could use it as a defence.

In your shoes I would get an estimate from another repairer to put the car back into serviceable condition, present that estimate to your repairer together with a written notice that if they don't respond within seven days with a satisfactory/acceptable offer you will issue a small claims court summons for damages of that amount.
Don't bluff, go online and get the claims form from the court office and if they don't respond issue the summons, it will cost you a small fee to do but it puts the ball firmly in their lap, they will either have to come up with a defence or pay up.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/small-claims#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm liking this approach to be honest. Have you priced up a replacement engine as you'll know pretty quick which way your likely to go with this info, favorable or otherwise?