Conrod failure

[Gethro]

Citroen C3vtr 1.4 +hdi conrod has come through the engine block at 36000 miles 3 year old and 37 days outwith warranty. The car was recalled 8 months ago to replace the conrod shells due to premature deterioration which could lead to engine failure; the work was done by the dealership.
Citroen have offered a 70% of the parts as goodwill as they claim the failure and the recall are unrelated. The dealership are not offering anything and give the reason that we had the oil changed for a service/ mot at 3 years, 1000 miles ago. I've spent 2 weeks discussing and debating this using varying common sense arguments with citroen/dealership giving ultimatum that the above offer stands, they are willing to open up the engine (not actually looked under bonnet yet) and carry out full investigation and if its in their favour the goodwill will be retracted.
Just need to know if I'm way off track in that the reason for the recall, the subsequent works and the engine failure are related and the 'service' oil change is irrelevant?

[Lighty]

Very awkward situation, does not quite read correctly, as I cannot understand if the reason for rejection is that you had the oil changed ?? . Did this oil change take place elsewhere other than the dealers ?

[myglaren]

The recall work followed by the rod failure seems a bit too coincidental to me.
The oil would have had to be changed then as a matter of course.
Are they saying that you let the service interval lapse too long?

[Jabo]

That's some real bad luck there, 37 days. Maybe they never done the recall repair properly. Make sure you get them to show you all of the con rod bearings (shells) that they find.

[jgra1]

That's some real bad luck there, 37 days

a 3 year old car suffering this.. that is bad luck also

[Gethro]

Oil change done by by local mechanic; not dealership between recall works allegedly having been done and the failure. They are actually saying we had a service too early with MOT, we did have a service also done around 2 year/21000 mile mark.

[citronut]

i would get on to trading standers,

i would also get an independent engineers report before the dealer gets there hands on the car,

so how many miles has the car done since they did the recall work,

they did work on your car and now the very same part of the engine they worked on has failed,
they should fiix it free of charge regardless of manufactures warranty

[Chlorate]

Wait...is that the first oil change at 21,000 miles?
And they're saying that's too early?!

Somewhat of a moot point though...if the bottom end shells were replaced 8 months ago and the oil was changed 7 months later you really wouldn't expect a failure.
Unless the new bearings were far too tight?

[addo]

Malcolm is on the money; if the garage felt the car had been underserviced prior, they should have rejected it without doing any work.

[Gethro]

Thanks Malcolm.

The car had its first full service aug2012 at 21000 miles, recall was done dec2012, at around 28000 miles, then we mot' car in june2013 at around 35000 miles and engine failed early aug2013 at around 36500 miles.
Just had another discussion and not its because the engine was not at the right temperature to change the oil: apparently independent garages don't heat the engine before draining oil but Citroen do?????

They can't or won't try and understand and citroen were quick to give part payment which makes us think they know about this issue and were trying to get us to take an early settlement. The fact they offered anything atoll makes us wonder?

I.m taking CAB advice now and think I'll send a letter under common law scotland titled reasonable care and skill. The killer is the time it's taking though.

[Chlorate]

Not having a hot engine when draining the oil out wouldn't cause a bottom end failure 1000 miles after an oil change, that's nonsense.

[citronut]

was the correct citroen specified oil type and a genuine filter used on the oil change,

heating the engine up will only help the old oil to run out quiker,

although i think it should be semi or fully synthetic oil, which is thinner that older oil types anyway

the dealer must have replaced to oil when they did the recall work,

they didnt leave the big end blots loose or not tightened properly by any chance

[Old-Guy]

was the correct citroen specified oil type and a genuine filter used on the oil change,

To my mind the oil is the key question.

they didnt leave the big end blots loose or not tightened properly by any chance

If one or both bolts on the failed big-end only hadn't been correctly tightened, the evidence is destroyed. Key question 2

I would suggest that the things that have to be checked under the supervision of an independent engineer are:

1. What oil is in the engine. (Sample)
2. Are the other big-ends tight.
3. Are all the big-end shells of the correct replacement type.
4. In what state are the remaining shells?

I don't know, but I would expect that the big-end bolts are angle tightened (i.e. tighten to specified torque then rotate through a specified angle). In which case it's impossible to check the tightness.

Years ago, when just a torque was specified, tightness could be verified by setting a good torque wrench to the specified torque; if the nut or bolt moves significantly, then the fastener wasn't tightened correctly. If it's tight, the increasing the setting in small increments until the fastener can be tightened slightly indicates how much it was over-tightened - to the setting prior to that at which it moved.

In my experience, success in fighting a large organisation depends on having a good case, sticking to the key facts (only), being persistent, being polite and above all, regardless of the provocation, not loosing your cool, and never being pressured into making a snap decision.

It would be worth doing some extensive Internet research for information on why Citroen issued the recall. Worth checking with http://www.honestjohn.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Gethro]

Note you mention oil old-guy. It shoul be 5w40 fully synthetic. Are you suggesting that this could be a key contributor from when recall works done by dealership or from last 1000miles. In years gone by oil was oil and would last 3000 miles between changes. Don't have invoice so can't be100% sure our mechanic put the correct oil in but to be fair he said he put reg number in a auto website and the oil identified for this vehicle was used.

I can't believe oil would stress the engine components in this short a time (5 weeks /1000miles) if the wrong motor oil was used given the many discussions about the use of fully syn/ semi syn/ etc...

Have told dealership we are contemplating our next move and seeking advice. I'm trying to find out who I can ask as an independant verifier to ensure impartiality.

[howiedean]

Note you mention oil old-guy. It shoul be 5w40 fully synthetic. Are you suggesting that this could be a key contributor from when recall works done by dealership or from last 1000miles. In years gone by oil was oil and would last 3000 miles between changes. Don't have invoice so can't be100% sure our mechanic put the correct oil in but to be fair he said he put reg number in a auto website and the oil identified for this vehicle was used.

I can't believe oil would stress the engine components in this short a time (5 weeks /1000miles) if the wrong motor oil was used given the many discussions about the use of fully syn/ semi syn/ etc...

Have told dealership we are contemplating our next move and seeking advice. I'm trying to find out who I can ask as an independent verifier to ensure impartiality.

Get an oil sample to the lab quick and then seek some legal advise would be my suggestion, maybe the main dealer could assist as you want it to be independent! Make sure that you don't drain off all of the oil from the engine as you want to keep the evidence.
Does your insurance/breakdown cover offer any legal advise?
It seems to be more than coincidence that the Conrod has failed and they have recently changed the bearings. I'd send a letter off to Citroen UK (send registered post) explaining what you want resolving, see what they reply with......

Good Luck!

Howie