Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

[Ben82]

Engine looks excessively close to that part of the subframe. Is a mount collapsing?

Did a quick visual of the one that is most known for failing on a v6 (one above the timing belt) looked fine.

It's definitely hoist territory, as refitting the plug with motor running will be a whole lot of fun.

Unfortunately I can't afford to get a hoist at the moment, nor do we currently have anywhere to store it.
So either need to try to get by or take it to the indy.

[Ben82]

Today I bought a set of long allen keys, that have got a ball end on the long end along with a small sprung ball inside it.. hopefully that means that the allen key can keep hold of the bolt when trying to get it back in.

That is of course if there's enough clearance. Hopefully these larger allen keys though will be of help though. Hopefully can try them out sometime in the week.

[Ben82]

Well Bandit12 and I did his ATF change on his 2.2 yesterday (I say we, he did most of the grunt work!)

And it has given me a bit of an insight into the logic of the way the level hole works. We got about 3.5l out of Bandit's box, but to cater for some spillage, and maybe not all of it coming out of his drain box into the measuring jug, we put 4l in.
When Bandit took off the level plug, there was quite a bit that got dumped out of the level hole, about a pint we reckon so just under half a litre.

So I reckon the unscrewing it from 55+C until 60 +C is really just to allow the Gearbox enough time to dump out the excess ATF (and is about a bearable temperature for contact with skin). so I don't believe going over 61C does the gearbox any harm, it just gets less and less bearable the hotter it gets.

This means that doing the level check first is fairly pointless, as the level check basically gets the level correct for the gear box, rather than for checking the level is correct. So I would need to add oil anyway to be able to do the check, and may not know if it's low or not.

Also Bandit said it only required about a 16th of a turn to get the level plug loose enough to then get it off by hand. So it maybe enough that I can get an allen key or bit on there to loosen it a fraction and do the rest with my hand in there. Will have to see when I'm back in Sweden.

[Mandrake]

There's nothing magic about 55 degrees per se, that's just the temperature Citroen (or ZF actually) decided to calibrate the level plug for. Oil expands with temperature so if you check it at too high a temperature the level will end up too low, at too low a temperature it will end up too high.

There is also a level compensation sump in the gearbox whereby oil is thrown up out of the main sump into a smaller sump by one of the gears - when the oil is cold its too thick to be thrown up so all the oil sits in the main sump, when its hotter and thinner it throws up into the smaller sump (which has small drain holes) and thus removes itself from circulation, partially compensating for the expansion due to temperature. 55 degrees will also be chosen to be above this threashold where the oil is thin enough to be thrown up into the compensation sump.

[Ben82]

Yeah the 55C wasn't too much of a concern, it was more it seemed like from the instructions there was a hurry that the level plug needed to go back in at 60C regardless of how much oil was coming out. When really, the level plug can go back in when it's a slow drip, even potentially at 57C or at 67C. I would imagine the level check could even be started at 60C and stopped at say 64C, and it would still be correct.
I guess the figures are there mainly for H&S reasons (along with being above the 55C so too much oil isn't drained out), so workers don't scald themselves, if they decided to do it at say 80C.

[Bandit12]

Hi guys, Ben is correct in that the oil change went very well. All drainplugs/breathers/level plugs identitfied and came loose.

Initially car was up on ramps which made it easier to get a decent 6mm hex socket on the level plug. then Ben and I got about 3.5 litres of very black oil out. Only fiddly bit was getting under the car with it level to put the level drain plug back in while the engine was running!
Seemed a bit subjective this waiting for the drips of oil at 60 degrees, how many drips per second/minute is appropriate? in the end i just made an educated guess and put the level plug back in while still getting about 1-2 small drips per second.

Taken the car for a about 30 miles now and a bit smoother with gearchanges (was very smooth before oil change) and the reverse sensors are now all working properly

Big thank you to Ben for the help with the technical Lexia stuff and for loading on the citroen workshop stuff onto my pc.
Bandit