S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

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pete the bus
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S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by pete the bus »

My GF bought this last week from a dealers in Shoreham. It was fine on the journey back to Folkestone, but after a couple of days it has suddenly developed a very erratic starting and running problem. It may take quite a few seconds to start and then immediately stop, or it will start and hunt quite badly on idle, and will often stall when you depress the clutch at lights etc. Sometimes it will seem to run ok, albeit with a lack of power, and idle quite normally. Other times it will be very rough, and often be very smokey.
It's got 120 odd thousand on the clock, and apart from this problem seems not too bad (N reg).
Any diesel experts out there who can give me a few pointers, please?
Thanks
Peter
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Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by citroenxm »

WOW, thats unusual for an N reg, its purely mechanical and pre ECU controlled timing..

Even Im a little stumped on this one... Sounds like a fuel restriction to me.. Do you know any history? Any recent serviceing?

Has the belt been changed? Heater plugs? ALTHOUGH heater plugs only cause a starting problem and running for a short moment. Once warm, a DERV should run perfectly fine. it sounds like fuel starvation.
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
pete the bus
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Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by pete the bus »

No history at all, I'm afraid. It was sold as spares or repairs and the dealer said it was simply being sold on after a PX deal and he had no info on it at all.
The water trap warning light comes on occasionally, but I have run about 2 ltrs of fuel out through the filter outlet and the light still comes on.
I was thinking a knackered injector pump, but surely it wouldn't just happen overnight?
Would a blocked pick up filter in the tank cause these symptoms?
Stewart(oily)
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My Cars: Citroens since 1990, BX Diesel, GTI, TZD with 1.9 TD running extra boost before it was fashionable!, ZX Volcane TD, S2 Xantia break 1.9TD, Xantia HDI 110, currently zipping about in a C2 Diesel. C2 died from the dreaded worm, C3 Picasso HDI Exclusive, the adventure continues.
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Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by Stewart(oily) »

I would start by changing the fuel filter, easy, right on the top and in the middle, inspect the old one and let us know, while you are there look at the injector pipes (steel ones) for looseness or leaks and have a look at the injector leak off pipes (small rubber ones running from injector to injector) any splits or cracks replace them (motor factors sell this by the metre)
These engines rarely give trouble and 120,000 is barely run in.
BXs since 1993 built 1.9 TZD turbo, got a S2 Xantia estate, brilliant car! 2013, Xantia HDI LX 110 2000 new car with 122,000, l C2 HDI Rusty rocket, C3 Picasso HDI new to me.
citroenxm
Posts: 8061
Joined: 30 Dec 2004, 23:10
Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by citroenxm »

Most Xantias, and later on from around P reg, the water in fuel sensor was removed, and most early cars have this plug, thats on the back right of the fuel filter unplugged...

Might be worth a fuel filter change, which wont hurt anyway..

Injection Pumps are VERY strong, and rarely give problems, so I wouldn't point at that.
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
pete the bus
Posts: 114
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Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by pete the bus »

I did have a look at the fuel filter - it seemed fairly new, wasn't discoloured at all, and there was no sediment in the housing. I toyed with the idea of contaminated fuel, but there was no improvement after I put a load more fresh diesel into the tank.
I am happy to hear the injector pump is not a likely culprit - we are both penniless and major repairs are not an option!
Jaf
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Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by Jaf »

Assuming that the S1 cars have the fuel primer bulb, give it a squeeze, should go hard in just a few pumps. If not you've a fuel leak somewhere. My S2 car wouldn't start most days unless I used the primer bulb (upto 60 pumps!), eventually found the fuel pump was leaking. Although the car only had a problem with starting, once started she was fine, so probably not your problem sorry.
Fred, a silver 1998 1.9TD SX Xantia.
Gwin, a white 1994 1.1 AX.
citroenxm
Posts: 8061
Joined: 30 Dec 2004, 23:10
Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by citroenxm »

Does she start INSTANTLY and run at idle for a while when cold?
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
pete the bus
Posts: 114
Joined: 05 Jun 2007, 23:09
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Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by pete the bus »

@ Jaf
Yes, it's got a fuel primer bulb. It goes hard after a couple of pumps.
@ citroenxm
No, it doesn;t start instantly from cold. It takes a while to get going and usually stalls for the first 3 or 4 attempts. Foot hard to the floor. Eventually it will get going with a fair bit of smoke but won;t idle until it's warm, and only then it will hunt. Once it's warm it will often start first time, but will run erratically, be under-powered, will maybe smoke under acceleration, and will sometimes stall when the revs drop off. Other times it will run fine but under-powered. ???
citroenxm
Posts: 8061
Joined: 30 Dec 2004, 23:10
Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by citroenxm »

Right, it really does sound like a fueling problem...

Areas of leaks/air ingress that need checking carefully::

1. Down the back of the engine behind the cam belt covers, the fuel pipes cross from the engine to the car bulk head. The return pipe has a U shape in it. The pipe can split here.

2. The fuel Primer bulb has a one way valve in it. It CAN play up and stop working, this allows fuel drain back and starting problems.

3. Have a carefull look below the Fuel Pump, on the engine block itself, behind the altinator.. If it looks like its damp, it could be fuel leaking. This could be leaking from the nose of the pump. Needing a new nose seal.

4. Any one of the injector leak pipes, as said above. Check that theres no damp around the injectors. They should be all dry.

5. Once all fuel issues are sorted, and theres still no power, it could be a leaking intercooler pipe.. but lets sort the fuel issue first.

Annoyingly, non starting could be either fuel OR Heater plugs. One under each injector. Without removing them one by one, its hard to tell how well they work.
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
pete the bus
Posts: 114
Joined: 05 Jun 2007, 23:09
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Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by pete the bus »

I'm pretty sure it's not a heater plug issue - I have another S1 (p reg) which DOES have heater plug problems and the symptoms are not the same.
I will have a close inspection of the areas you have brought to light - many, many thanks for taking the time to give me some pointers.
One more question - Would pump timing affect the running as I have described? I have read that the timing belt can slip or that the pump itself can be moved to alter the timing(for running on veg oil).
citroenxm
Posts: 8061
Joined: 30 Dec 2004, 23:10
Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by citroenxm »

Actually, thinking about it, yes possibly. However, if any of it is out you will know about it. It will be VERY noisy, and rattley.

Obviously, we dont know how much you know about Diesels. Useually when I say that above people say they are rattley anyway. BUT there is a difference.

Its starting to sound like a timing issue over a fuel problem now.

You can check the timeing, after removing the top two cam belt covers, theres then Timing Holes, that three M8 bolts screw through the pullys into the side of the engine.. Then theres a 4th timing hole behind the starter for the crank.

All the bolts and the pin (useually a 6mm allen key) should slide and screw in without a problem...
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
pete the bus
Posts: 114
Joined: 05 Jun 2007, 23:09
Location: S.E.Kent
My Cars:

Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by pete the bus »

I had a timing belt slip on a S2 I had a few years ago. Apparently the auxiliary belt can shred a little and a fragment of this can get underneath the timing belt and lift it off the sprocket. It was very obvious what had happened - it was very clattery and you could hear the pistons 'kissing' the valves.
This is not like that at all - and the fact that sometimes it seems to idle and run ok (albeit with reduced power) seems to rule this out, although I am not sure how a minor timing error would affect the running...
citroenxm
Posts: 8061
Joined: 30 Dec 2004, 23:10
Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by citroenxm »

Diesel Injection timing has to be SPOT on really due to the accuracy of the designs... One tooth is enough.. on either of the three.

However as you say if it runs fine sometimes, it still seems to be fuel.. Enough fuel to idle the engine, but not enough with higher demand to give full power
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
Stewart(oily)
Posts: 893
Joined: 07 Oct 2005, 16:31
Location: North Wales
My Cars: Citroens since 1990, BX Diesel, GTI, TZD with 1.9 TD running extra boost before it was fashionable!, ZX Volcane TD, S2 Xantia break 1.9TD, Xantia HDI 110, currently zipping about in a C2 Diesel. C2 died from the dreaded worm, C3 Picasso HDI Exclusive, the adventure continues.
x 31

Re: S1 Xantia 1.9TD - Engine running very erratically

Post by Stewart(oily) »

No need to alter pump timing to run vegoil, certainly not by moving the belt, if you have tools it will not take long to verify the timing as per Haynes, if the belt were loose enough to jump a tooth timing and tension would need looking at before driving it any more. flooring the gas to start is no use with diesels, keep your feet off the pedal :wink:
BXs since 1993 built 1.9 TZD turbo, got a S2 Xantia estate, brilliant car! 2013, Xantia HDI LX 110 2000 new car with 122,000, l C2 HDI Rusty rocket, C3 Picasso HDI new to me.
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