10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

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Mandrake
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by Mandrake »

Unless you drove the car extensively before the modification was made, I really can't see how you can say its a waste of time and only a placebo... :roll:

For all you know the ride on Bernies car was really bad to begin with (I can only go by his description) and the modification only brought it back to "normal". Nobody is saying this modification magically makes the ride better than normal.

Having now modified two cars I can assure you that it is not placebo, however I will readily admit that not all cars may require or benefit from the modification, only those that remain stubbornly harsh and crashy after all the other normal issues have been dealt with.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by DickieG »

Mandrake wrote:Unless you drove the car extensively before the modification was made, I really can't see how you can say its a waste of time and only a placebo... :roll:

For all you know the ride on Bernies car was really bad to begin with (I can only go by his description) and the modification only brought it back to "normal". Nobody is saying this modification magically makes the ride better than normal.

Having now modified two cars I can assure you that it is not placebo, however I will readily admit that not all cars may require or benefit from the modification, only those that remain stubbornly harsh and crashy after all the other normal issues have been dealt with.
Fair point but then when I removed the pipe nothing changed :roll: plus of course I had other Hydractive Xantia's at the same time as I owned that one enabling me to draw a direct comparison before/during/after hence my experience and the opinion I've formed as a result = placebo pure and simple.

I reckon Citroen have done a fair bit of testing on their suspension system over the years and if such a problem really existed with such a simple fix, something in me reckons that they just might have modified the pipe themselves :wink:
superloopy wrote:Ooh Richard .... controversy already on your 'return' to forum life
No change there then :lol:
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by Dommo »

You have to bear in mind these cars were their first dabble in anti sink cars though, I have done this mod to see if it would shut up a noisy steering rack, it hasn't.. The ride seems the same to me too however that's not to say it won't work in all cars.
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by cc101 »

Guys this procedure was only implemented as a test to try and cure the crashy ride, I must state that it will NOT improve a ride which is deemed as ok, my car was smooth over undulating surfaces but when you would hit a pothole/drain cover etc it would bang/crash over them! Once this simple mod was completed it returned to normal or how it should be.

Believe me its not placebo as I work in the community visiting people and I'm in and out of the car over 20 times a day driving around the same roads/bumps, for me it has made a world of difference.

Finally I think a few folks have been thinking that this is some kind of miracle mod that will cure all symptoms, it's not, it worked on my crashy ride after everything else was exhausted!

Chris.
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by isisalar »

Re the main stealers and the o rings, to be fair to them I didn't have the part no. and the 1st picture they got up on the screen didn't show any either, after showing them that they were indeed available they managed to dig it out by using the chassis no. rather than the reg no. I don't think they were being deliberately dissmisive they just needed a nudge in the right direction.
Since the discussion about de pressurising the system I've taken to leaving the car on low when it's parked for any long periods which certainly gets rid of most of the bubbles in the system temporarily. When the back is almost down there is a slight 'shudder'. Any ideas what this could be?
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by steelcityuk »

Hi All,

I'm going to give this a try on the SED when I finally put her back on the road. It's great that after all these years of puzzling why my Xantia wasn't 'nice' to ride in a possible solution is discovered. I've got a spare 'thingy' in the shed so I could mod that one and compare the difference.

Steve.
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by isisalar »

Well I've now got the o rings and time permitting I'll get them fitted tomorrow/Tues prior to my visit to Southampton late Tues.Having studied Simon's very helpful diagram I'm a bit apprehensive, there appears to be a ball bearing under the spring. Given that the 120 degree v is upright is there any chance that these may become displaced or lost? Is the o ring placed in position before the hex bolt is replaced, or attached to it? I take it that excessive tightening is not needed. Any advice very welcome chaps, I really need to get to Southampton Tues eve. and I'd like to do it with LHM rather than bubble mix!
The bubbles seem to have increased since I tightened the bolts up?
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by Mandrake »

I'm not 100% certain as I've only removed the plugs while held upright in a vice, but I believe the ball is held in by a retainer, only the spring can fall out, it sits in a slight recess in the centre at both ends.

The o-ring fits onto a groove on the plug itself before reassembly - its quite a tight fit and you have to roll it over the threads from the bottom end without damaging it to get it into place.

If you're unsure tackle the top one first so you can see what you're doing and have less chance of anything falling out...
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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1978 CX 2400
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by isisalar »

Hi guys
Well I took the plunge yesterday and went ahead with the o ring job. I did the easier one first, the one without the pipe connection. Really easy to remove, I'd placed a cloth over the alternator to catch any drips, the spring remained in situ so cut off the very hard o ring and fitted the new one to the plug. Going back to the pump, the spring, and the ballbearing in it's retainer, had ejected themselves although they were still in the recess, there was a worrying amount of LHM on the cloth and elswhere. I then realised that although I'd released the system pressure, for some reason I hadn't put the car on low first and there was a lot of oil wanting to come out. Much rushing around gathering rags followed.
Further study of Simon's diagram showed which way to replace the ballbearing and it was all back together in about 5 mins. I then started the car having put in the litre of LHM I had ready and put it on low and then de pressurised. Getting the pipe out of the other plug was straightforward following Simon's instructions and having removed the plug, this time without the LHM torrent, the ball and the spring stayed where they should, replaced o ring, re assembled in about 1/2 hour. I then went to the very local GSF where I put in a further 1.5 litres of LHM which got it up to level. I had obviously tried out the brakes and the steering before the journey. I found the ride was not dissimilar to how it was previously, running on the bubble mix, the return journey with enough LHM was wonderful.
I'd done the job on my parents driveway which now has 2.5 litres, less what's soaked into my undertray, of LHM on it! Won't do that again. After some citrobics the return journey home was all I'd hoped for with no deterioration of the ride. I left it on low de pressurised last night to get any last remaining air out and although I haven't done that many miles yet all the signs are good. Got a 90 mile drive to Southampton today so that should be a good test.
For the cost of the parts and the ease of the job, which only needs a few spanners, I would thoroughly recommend this to any HDI drivers suffering a crashy ride, I can't speak for other models.
Curiously that stop light with the temp warning light still came on this morning only going out when I touched the throttle?
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by Mandrake »

Glad you got the o-rings done successfully Paul - and its useful to know that the ball and retainer can be ejected if there is enough pressure in the system, so care needs to be taken to avoid this. I've only ever done the job with the pump removed from the car and the plug facing upwards during its removal so haven't run into this issue. As you say, replacing these two o-rings is a fairly easy job and in most cases these two o-rings are the only sources of leaks on the pump other than the inlet hose.

In theory having the bleed screw undone should have been enough to prevent the pressure you saw, but I'm usually a stickler for always de-pressurizing the whole system including suspension before doing hydraulic work. Certainly when I did the tank pipe mod and had the top out of the tank I had the suspension well and truly de-pressurized to avoid any leak back of oil through the now disconnected pipes, and indeed there was none, barely more than a few drips in the hour or so it was apart.

Fingers crossed the ride stays crash free! :) Mine has been very consistently crash free, however it has made more obvious a couple of other minor issues - one is that the front ride height sometimes seems to "creep" higher during driving, enough that you can tell from your perspective out the drivers window that the car is "leaning back" slightly. When it does this the ride at the front becomes a bit "jiggly". Not harsh though. When I measure the ride height while stationary the front ride height is spot on, so it's something that is happening dynamically, possibly the manual override linkage is out of adjustment, I've never checked it.

BTW, I did notice a significant reduction (but not elimination) of ride crashiness when I had my pump out to replace those two o-rings - and this was well before I did the 10 minute mod. Whether the o-rings were admitting air on the intake strokes or whether there was a poor seal on the main inlet hose that I inadvertently fixed when refitting the pump I can't be sure, but there was a definite improvement in both ride quality and consistency of ride quality. Any sources of air ingress into the hydraulic pump, whether at the pump or before it are cumulative. Only when all of the air leaks and sources of air bubbles through the inlet are eliminated does the ride become truly crash free and consistently good. :)

Interesting to see that the ride on yours was still a bit crashy when the LHM level was 1.5 litres too low but was good once topped up - this tallies with my observation that some bubbles do still seem to get through to the pump (despite the modification) when the oil level in the tank is low, (due to the suspension being fully raised) but not when the oil level is normal (normal ride height) or maximum. (minimum ride height) It does seem that there needs to be enough depth of oil in the tank to form a buffering layer to allow any bubbles/turbulence to disperse - if the level is too low there is no buffer layer and the bubbles/turbulence are down close to the pump inlet depth allowing the bubbles to be sucked in.

Regarding the temperature warning light coming on when first starting and going away when you rev the engine a bit - check your coolant level !! :twisted: The temperature warning light above the temperature gauge is also used for low coolant level, measured in the expansion bottle depending on the engine.

When my V6 was using a little bit of coolant I'd notice this sometimes too - the warning light would flicker on and off a few times when starting then go away after 30 seconds or so - the heat and circulation of the coolant in the engine was just enough to satisfy the level sensor after it had been running for about a minute. The coolant was only an inch or two too low in the expansion bottle, that's all it took for the warning light to flicker on.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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1978 CX 2400
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by isisalar »

Curiouser and curiouser.
Set off for Southampton fully loaded with tools and fishing gear for a weeks holiday, looking forward to enjoying the newly supple ride. Leaving the M27 on to the B roads something didn't seem quite right with the suspension, very smooth over the small bumps but anything a bit larger it was very hard. After a few days analyzing I came to the conclusion that the new pure LHM diet had been too much for the three year/30,000 mile rear spheres and they'd failed on the journey down. Bounce test on the rear showed only about 3-4" soft travel and then hard. The electrovalves were working fine. Over the week I did nearly 500 miles, severely peed off, and putting the new spheres right at the top of the to do list.
Around the time I replaced the o rings the car had taken to sinking at the rear sometimes, when holding on the footbrake at lights, I put this down to the bubble mix as this had stopped happening through the week.
Sitting in the first major traffic jam for a week about 10 miles from home, the car sank down at the back and then returned to normal height. Pulling away it was immediately obvious that I now had 2 fully working rear spheres and normal service had been resumed suspensionwise.
I can only surmise that there was some sort of blockage, probably air which got in when all the LHM escaped doing the o rings. Whatever it was, it was stopping the rear spheres working and now they are.
Now going to give it a further bout of citrobics and a good bleeding.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by Mandrake »

Sounds to me like your rear Hydractive control block has been sticking in the hard mode and has finally freed itself...

When you say the electrovalves were working fine, do you just mean that they click and hum, or can you tell an obvious difference between the two modes in a bounce test ?

In my experience even if the electrovalve clicks it doesn't necessarily mean that the suspension has successfully switched into soft mode. The electrovalve just supplies (or removes) pressure to the end of a shuttle valve inside the main hydractive control block, this valve sliding back and forth is what actually blocks off and connects the centre sphere.

On both my Hydractive Xantia's I've experienced intermittent cases of the rear suspension staying stuck in hard mode for extended periods of time (30 seconds to a few minutes or more) despite the electrovalve being energised and seemingly working properly.

One example of this symptom is to start the car, let it lift and stabilise at normal ride height, wait a while, and then 30 seconds or more AFTER the car has finished lifting there will be a small "thud" from the rear and the rear suspension will drop in height an inch or two - when that thud occurs its the suspension ACTUALLY switching into soft mode, despite the fact that the electrovalve has been energised the whole time since the car started, and full operating pressure had been achieved 30 seconds or more ago.

My current Xantia V6 used to do this regularly in the winter on cold starts in the evening after work but I haven't seen it do it in the summer.

I don't know for certain what causes this issue, my best theory is that the shuttle valve in the hydractive control block is seizing or sticking - for whatever reason it doesn't move smoothly and easily between the two modes, and requires a larger than normal amount of pressure to make it "let go" and move. One idea I had is that one of the o-rings which the shuttle valve has may be damaged from age and get lodged in the valve but that's only a theory.

I chased this problem for a while on my previous Xantia too and never nailed it down, although it happened infrequently.

I don't know of anyone who has seriously investigated the possibility of the slide valve sticking - I'd sure like to fully strip down a hydractive control block from a scrapped car to see what (if anything) goes wrong inside them and whether the valve can seize or whether a damaged o-ring could cause mischief...
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by isisalar »

This was certainly not the rear sticking in hard mode, ie. only corner spheres working, they were rock hard not working at all. The only movement was that available from the centre sphere ie. soft mode about 3-4" travel, now have the full 7-8". Something I forgot to mention was that it also didn't respond to a sit in the boot test, now it's working fine.
I checked the electrovalves with the radio and they were switching on and off exactly as they should. I used to get that thud instantly the ignition was turned on, it disappeared when the two rear centre spheres were replaced.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by Mandrake »

isisalar wrote:This was certainly not the rear sticking in hard mode, ie. only corner spheres working, they were rock hard not working at all. The only movement was that available from the centre sphere ie. soft mode about 3-4" travel, now have the full 7-8".
I can assure you there's absolutely no way possible for the strut spheres to be isolated from the pistons leaving only the centre sphere to provide springing. It just can't happen. :) The sphere is screwed onto the cylinder and directly coupled to it through a column of oil, and there's nothing in a sphere that can cause it to work intermittently either. If the strut spheres were punctured you'd get all your springing (in soft mode only!) from the centre sphere, but a punctured sphere will not suddenly mend itself. Your strut spheres will definitely have been working during this period of stiffer ride.

Keep in mind that in the soft mode the strut spheres and centre sphere are connected "in parallel" hydraulically, which means they provide two alternative paths for the oil to flow (albeit through different rate dampers) so that the suspension softness in the soft mode is a cumulative sum of the centre sphere AND the strut spheres, its not just provided by the centre sphere working by itself.

Because of the different damping rates the centre sphere tends to absorb slower/smaller movements while the strut spheres absorb larger/faster movements, which is kinda neat because it means the rebound damping is dynamic and varies with the force of the initial impact...

The only things that could possibly cause your suspension travel to be 3-4" and now return to 7-8" would be incorrect ride height (height corrector sticky maybe) or the hydractive system sticking in hard mode. Honest. ;)
Something I forgot to mention was that it also didn't respond to a sit in the boot test, now it's working fine.
Not sure what you mean exactly ? Didn't respond as in didn't compress much when you sat in it ? Or didn't make a height correction when you sat in it ?
I checked the electrovalves with the radio and they were switching on and off exactly as they should. I used to get that thud instantly the ignition was turned on, it disappeared when the two rear centre spheres were replaced.
Cheers
Paul
As I said earlier, its not enough for the electrovalves to be energised to guarantee that the suspension is in soft mode. For example if there is no high pressure supply to the input of the electrovalve it will happily click and hum on your radio, but the shuttle valve in the control block won't move. Think of the electrovalve as a relay - the power supplied to it operates the coil, but if no power (hydraulic pressure) is connected to any of the switch contacts nothing (except a click) will happen.

So hearing a noise on the radio doesn't guarantee anything except that the ECU is working. (Besides, how would you tell apart the front and rear electrovalves on the radio ? You could just be hearing the front one)
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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Re: 10 minute Xantia mod....what a difference!

Post by isisalar »

Not sure what you mean exactly ? Didn't respond as in didn't compress much when you sat in it ? Or didn't make a height correction when you sat in it ?
[quote]
It didn't make the height correction or compress very much. The rear height was set about 6 months ago and it hasn't changed one bit throughout the overhaul process.
I realise that the rear or any spheres can't repair themselves but I can only say that the symptoms were exactly like flat spheres. When the transformation happened I was about 500 yds from a GSF branch and was about to go in to see the availability of a new pair of spheres. The ride was very strange, with drain covers and small bumps etc being mostly unfelt but anything larger producing a very nasty reaction from the rear only. A bounce test on the front showed it to be nicely soft. Also very little anti roll effect at the rear, all very weird.
I'm no expert in hydraulics or electrics but this was far harder than hard mode, which my last one was stuck in for 5 years including at least one rear sphere change, which is why I'm so determined to get this one right and fingers crossed it looks like I could be there at last, hopefully permanantly.
Is there anything I could do to ensure this suspect valve remains working? I was hoping that the hydraflush would have freed off any valves that were a bit sticky but frankly I think it was a waste of time. The filters had collected far more muck when I did the mod a few weeks after replacing the hydraflush with LHM, than after the hydraflush cycle.
Next job is to replace the droplinks and then the P bushes. Obviously Lemforder droplinks but what make for the P bushes? GSF list 2 types but only stock the cheap ones at about £7 each which are probably made of toffee. I'm in this for the long haul so I want to get it as right as possible.
Thanks for all the feedback so far.
Cheers
Paul
J reg 1.9d auto BX first Citroen
M reg 1.9d auto Xantia lx
N reg 1.9 td Xantia VSX Estate
T reg 2.0HDI Xantia Exclusive Estate Present car
M reg 106 diesel red
L reg 106 diesel white
02 Saxo 1.1i desire wife's present car(sadly now very ill cambelt gone- Doh)
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