At long last I got the VSX on a lift this afternoon. The dreadful rattle from the front suspension isn't, as I'd feared, a ball joint but the small bush in the radius arm 'eye' (i.e. not the rear 'P' bush).
I've found Simon Mandrake's diagram for alignment of the non-P bush, but I could do with some tips and info on removing, aligning and fitting the bush.
One joint on one of the drop links has a split rubber bellows, so that drop link will have to be replaced at the same time as the bush to get it through the MoT even though the ball joint is in good nick.
Two new tyres (the front Michelins have come off second best in an encounter with broken glass) and I hope she'll then be legal; anyway, I'll stick her in for test and see if anything else gets turned up.
Then it's just the dreaded electrical gremlins to sort.
Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
Moderator: RichardW
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Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
Last edited by Old-Guy on 15 Jun 2013, 13:42, edited 1 time in total.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
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Re: Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
I would be inclined to replace both drop links. They only cost about £15 each, and it makes sense (to me, at least) to keep wear symmetrical where possible.
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
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Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
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Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
ex BX 1.9
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ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
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Re: Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
Not done it on a Xantia, but.... Drive the old bush off the arm with a cold chisel or similar. Align the new bush, then drive it on with a socket or tube on metal inner part - the old bush may well provide a suitable mandrel Getting the arm back in with a new bush on is reportedly tricky - don't be tempted to life the ARB too far though, or you will upset the front ride height.
Richard W
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1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm) - x 17
Re: Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
They've both been replaced in the not too distant past. The 'failed' drop link has nice, tight ball joints, one rubber boot is split so it's an MoT fail.Hell Razor5543 wrote:I would be inclined to replace both drop links. They only cost about £15 each, and it makes sense (to me, at least) to keep wear symmetrical where possible.
Richard - it's NOT the 'P' bush at the rear end of the arm, but the bush that goes in the eye on the bend of the arm that I have to replace. I've just been looking on service.citroen, which confirms my suspicions. The whole radius arm assembly was replaced just over 2 years and 2,000 miles ago, but the silly s*d used the wrong bolt which is slightly waisted, so rattles in the sleeve in the bush and now both bolt and sleeve are knackered. The correct bolt is NFP, so I'll have to rake around and try to find one that's a snug fit in the new bush - failing that, fart about making a sleeve from shim stock (or beer can). Of course, if I had a lathe .....
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
Re: Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
Guy
i didnt know the rear arms have bush's ( Radius arms )
another tip is to have both wheels off the ground even if only working on one side,
as this will take the tension off of the anti roll bar
i didnt know the rear arms have bush's ( Radius arms )
another tip is to have both wheels off the ground even if only working on one side,
as this will take the tension off of the anti roll bar
Regards, malcolm.
current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
- Old-Guy
- Posts: 1798
- Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
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- My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm) - x 17
Re: Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
Addo - too late! I'd already got the arm off and back on. As you say, I may regret not thinking of this valuable tip for myself (and I've even got a spare new dog-bone somewhere amongst the bags of stuff salvaged from the Green Lady).
As of last night: Arm off, bush replaced, and arm re-fitted but not bolted-up; no problems with removing or re-fitting the arm, the trick is to move the ARB up out of the way with suspension fully compressed on the other side.
My successful technique was (in summary):
Removing radius arm
Depressurise
Support the front on axle stands.
Wheels off
N.B. Keep all nuts with their bolts, chances are the drop link nuts are coarse thread while those for the radius arm should be fine thread.
Undo one end of both drop links
(If you've got standard (6-sphere) suspension, unclip front dog-bone as Addo suggests - other wise be very careful of the electrovalves!)
Unbolt radius arm N.B. Keep all nuts with their bolts, chances are the drop link nuts are coarse thread while those for the radius arm should be fine thread.
Prop ARB up so that the 'P' bush can we carefully wiggled out forwards and under it. Do not push the ARB further up than it will easily go
Remove radius arm
Removing old bush
Note the alignment of the old bush
Capillary action inevitably draws some moisture into the joint between bush and arm so rust acts like loc-tite!
If you don't have access to an air chisel or similar, cut out the centre of the bush by cutting the rubber with a dry-wall saw or even a deep hole-saw in an electric drill (use plenty of soapy water as lubricant). There's really no way to press-out the bush unless you make a mandrel exactly the right size as the out sleeve of the bush is probably less than 1mm thick.
Collapse the outer steel sleeve with a small cold chisel being careful not to damage the bore of the 'eye' in the arm
Fitting the new bush looked like a complete PITA as there's no space to get the jaw of a vice on top of the bush. To use a press would require a special mandrel shaped like a question mark to go right around the 'P' bush. There is another way that's not difficult:-
Fitting bush
'Tools':
A large ½” drive bi-hex socket into which the un-flanged end of the new bush fits (32mm (IIRC).
If I had access to a lathe it would have been worth quickly turning up a mandrel like a very thick domed washer: OD same as the machined recess in the radius arm, slight under-cut to hold the bush flange, then a deeper recess the rubber and the sleeve. In the real world:-
Procedure
A smear of oil or grease in the 'eye' and on the outside of the bush sleeve will help fitting (and hopefully stop it rusting in place!)
Thick washer under bolt head, then bolt down though ½” square; bolt through eye from 'outside'; bush onto bolt followed by the large diameter washers then a stack of M10 washers and finally the nut.
The next problem is that the outer, un-machined, face of the eye is not at right angles to the bore so it's necessary to pack the rim of the socket at two places with washers of suitable thickness so that the socket is supported at 3 points on precisely the same axis as the eye. You turn the nut only, keeping the bolt head still to avoid moving the socket out of alignment.
Once I'd got it all assembled and got a little pressure on the bush, I found it easiest to then clamp the arm in the vice so that the bush was on top with its axis vertical. This made it easier to make sure the bush was at a perfect right angle to the machine face of the eye. One I'd got it started, I put one drop of engine oil (don't get any on the rubber) in the shallow ring formed by the chamfer on the eye so that the bush sleeve was lubricated as it was drawn down. Then its just a matter of slowly and carefully tightening the nut, constantly checking that the bush is dead square to the eye - the packing washers will distort under load and will need re-adjusting. The secret to success is to not rush it – if the bush tilts, the sleeve will get marked and the job will become a whole lot more difficult.
When the bush has only a few mm to go, make sure that as the bush sleeve emerges from the eye, it won't be damaged by either the packing washers or the socket rim – by this stage, the risk of misalignment is negligible but you don't want to chew up the bush sleeve.
Re-fitting the radius arm
P-bracket bolts: longer one through the ARB clamp with shorter (19mm) nut and thick washer, shorter one with through other hole with taller (18mm) nut and washer.
It's essential that the bush bolts are only tightened when the radius arm is in the correct position see this post for an alignment diagram. I used a short (330mm) cheapo laser level and a tape measure with a magnetic end to do the measuring with the brake disc(hand-brake on) supported on the jack. Not difficult at all.
I wish I'd ordered some new nyloc nuts - I'll look up part numbers and specifications when I have a bit more time.
As of last night: Arm off, bush replaced, and arm re-fitted but not bolted-up; no problems with removing or re-fitting the arm, the trick is to move the ARB up out of the way with suspension fully compressed on the other side.
My successful technique was (in summary):
Removing radius arm
Depressurise
Support the front on axle stands.
Wheels off
N.B. Keep all nuts with their bolts, chances are the drop link nuts are coarse thread while those for the radius arm should be fine thread.
Undo one end of both drop links
(If you've got standard (6-sphere) suspension, unclip front dog-bone as Addo suggests - other wise be very careful of the electrovalves!)
Unbolt radius arm N.B. Keep all nuts with their bolts, chances are the drop link nuts are coarse thread while those for the radius arm should be fine thread.
Prop ARB up so that the 'P' bush can we carefully wiggled out forwards and under it. Do not push the ARB further up than it will easily go
Remove radius arm
Removing old bush
Note the alignment of the old bush
Capillary action inevitably draws some moisture into the joint between bush and arm so rust acts like loc-tite!
If you don't have access to an air chisel or similar, cut out the centre of the bush by cutting the rubber with a dry-wall saw or even a deep hole-saw in an electric drill (use plenty of soapy water as lubricant). There's really no way to press-out the bush unless you make a mandrel exactly the right size as the out sleeve of the bush is probably less than 1mm thick.
Collapse the outer steel sleeve with a small cold chisel being careful not to damage the bore of the 'eye' in the arm
Fitting the new bush looked like a complete PITA as there's no space to get the jaw of a vice on top of the bush. To use a press would require a special mandrel shaped like a question mark to go right around the 'P' bush. There is another way that's not difficult:-
Fitting bush
'Tools':
A large ½” drive bi-hex socket into which the un-flanged end of the new bush fits (32mm (IIRC).
If I had access to a lathe it would have been worth quickly turning up a mandrel like a very thick domed washer: OD same as the machined recess in the radius arm, slight under-cut to hold the bush flange, then a deeper recess the rubber and the sleeve. In the real world:-
- A selection of thick M10 'penny' washers. A couple of Big thick washers with an ID larger than the central sleeve of the bush and an OD no smaller than the OD of the bush outer sleeve. The idea is to assemble a stack that will apply the compression from tightening the bolt to the outer flange of the bush rather than trying rip out the inner sleeve. The problem is the very limited space on the 'inside' of the arm.
A pair of M10 bolts, the longer of the two being socket length, plus twice the bush length, plus about about 25mm nut and the collection of washers. The thread of the shorter must overlap that of the longer by rather more than the thickness of the nut. And its plain (non-threaded) length no longer than the bush plus socket. If the threads are short you might have to use more bolts. Alternatively a length of M10 studding from a builder's merchants or DIY super-store
Procedure
A smear of oil or grease in the 'eye' and on the outside of the bush sleeve will help fitting (and hopefully stop it rusting in place!)
Thick washer under bolt head, then bolt down though ½” square; bolt through eye from 'outside'; bush onto bolt followed by the large diameter washers then a stack of M10 washers and finally the nut.
The next problem is that the outer, un-machined, face of the eye is not at right angles to the bore so it's necessary to pack the rim of the socket at two places with washers of suitable thickness so that the socket is supported at 3 points on precisely the same axis as the eye. You turn the nut only, keeping the bolt head still to avoid moving the socket out of alignment.
Once I'd got it all assembled and got a little pressure on the bush, I found it easiest to then clamp the arm in the vice so that the bush was on top with its axis vertical. This made it easier to make sure the bush was at a perfect right angle to the machine face of the eye. One I'd got it started, I put one drop of engine oil (don't get any on the rubber) in the shallow ring formed by the chamfer on the eye so that the bush sleeve was lubricated as it was drawn down. Then its just a matter of slowly and carefully tightening the nut, constantly checking that the bush is dead square to the eye - the packing washers will distort under load and will need re-adjusting. The secret to success is to not rush it – if the bush tilts, the sleeve will get marked and the job will become a whole lot more difficult.
When the bush has only a few mm to go, make sure that as the bush sleeve emerges from the eye, it won't be damaged by either the packing washers or the socket rim – by this stage, the risk of misalignment is negligible but you don't want to chew up the bush sleeve.
Re-fitting the radius arm
P-bracket bolts: longer one through the ARB clamp with shorter (19mm) nut and thick washer, shorter one with through other hole with taller (18mm) nut and washer.
It's essential that the bush bolts are only tightened when the radius arm is in the correct position see this post for an alignment diagram. I used a short (330mm) cheapo laser level and a tape measure with a magnetic end to do the measuring with the brake disc(hand-brake on) supported on the jack. Not difficult at all.
I wish I'd ordered some new nyloc nuts - I'll look up part numbers and specifications when I have a bit more time.
Last edited by Old-Guy on 16 Jun 2013, 12:24, edited 5 times in total.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
Re: Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
When the lower arm bushes need replacing on mine, which the left hand side already does, I think I'll just go for one of the complete arm with bushes that are available for around £75. One heck of a lot less hassle for someone like me working with limited facilities and tools...
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
- Old-Guy
- Posts: 1798
- Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
- Location: Gloucestershire
- My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm) - x 17
Re: Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
Having discovered that it can't be pressed out,when I announced I had to nip home for 5 minutes to get some tools to cut out the bush (hole saw set and dry-wall saw) I was told "Just chop it out with the air chisel...." and it was literally taken out of my hands. I don't think it would have been any more work to have done it a little less brutally and a bit more scientifically! You do need a vice and bench (or Workmate).
Once you know how (coming soon), it's not difficult to fit the new bush - under a fiver, a saving of £70. Most of the effort is in removing the arm and re-fitting it. Replacing a 'P' bush is a different matter as aligning it on the arm is critical.
Once you know how (coming soon), it's not difficult to fit the new bush - under a fiver, a saving of £70. Most of the effort is in removing the arm and re-fitting it. Replacing a 'P' bush is a different matter as aligning it on the arm is critical.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
Re: Xantia Front Radius Arm bush alignment.
a bit more about the p bush alignment
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=28485" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=28485" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
99 silver 2.1td exclusive xantia
99 red 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia..
00 black 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
99 blue 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
06 silver 1.6 hdi vtr c5
57 blue C4 GP 1.6hdi exclusive
08 black C4 GP 2.0hdi vtr
99 red 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia..
00 black 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
99 blue 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
06 silver 1.6 hdi vtr c5
57 blue C4 GP 1.6hdi exclusive
08 black C4 GP 2.0hdi vtr