Xantia stuck in hard mode

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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by Mandrake »

xantos wrote:Just measured the electrovalves... When they are energized the car jumps up and then they are being held at 3V for a couple of seconds and back to 0V again. And then again after a minute.

The hardest thing to do is keeping my nerves calm... :evil:
As promised here is a slightly more detailed explanation of what is going on.

What you need to understand is that the electrovalves require the full 12 volts to switch on, however after switching on they are held on at a lower voltage - an average voltage of about 3 volts, which is really a 12 volt peak pulse waveform at 1Khz with an on time duty cycle of about 25%.

The dilemma of Citroen's design is that permanently feeding 12 volts would dissipate 30 watts in the electrovalve coil which is too much for such a small coil to withstand permanently, and yet a lower voltage is not sufficient to switch the state of the electrovalve.

Their solution which is a bit of a kluge IMHO is to apply the full 12 volts for half a second to "slam" the electrovalve solidly from the off state to the on state, then apply an average of 3 volts to keep it held in the on state. The power dissipation from 3 volts is only about 1.9 watts, thus doesn't overheat the coil as 30 watts would.

The ECU constantly monitors the average current draw of each electrovalve and if it is too low it detects a fault and will shut off BOTH electrovalves for about one minute, then go through the same process again, where it applies 12 volts for half a second then back to the 3 volt average pulse width modulated signal.

When the back EMF diode is open circuit the ECU sees large voltage spikes during the pulse modulated signal period, and because this monitored voltage/current is out of spec it shuts down the outputs to protect the system.

Therefore when you have a faulty diode, when the suspension goes from hard to soft it will go soft for half a second during the full 12 volt phase and then almost immediately the power will be shut off putting the suspension back in hard for about a minute, it will then switch to soft for half a second and back to hard for a minute. That's the typical symptoms of a faulty diode.

What can also happen when the diode is faulty is that even if the ECU keeps supplying power the electrovalve will mechanically drop out back into the hard mode. This is because the current flowing through the back EMF diode during each turn off period in the pulse waveform actually helps to keep the solenoid energised, when the diode is open the average current flow through the solenoid coil is much lower and not strong enough to overcome the spring so it drops out.

If the diode is not completely open circuit but has an internal high resistance connection (I've had this happen to me) then it will sometimes pulsate rapidly between 12 volts -> 3 volts, zero volts -> 12 volts -> 3 volts -> zero volts in a cycle with each cycle lasting a couple of seconds.

One thing that you could try as a test only is to also shunt each diode with a 22 ohm 5 watt resistor. See if this stops the ECU from cycling the outputs on and off. If it does it shows that the load that the ECU is seeing is outside the normal specs, and that the ECU is probably ok.
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by xantos »

Thank you for the useful information. It's becoming quite a challenge trying to make the hydraulics work as it should.

Another symptom... When the car is running and on ride height when I try to bounce it in the front it is soft but it doesn't bounce back (sometimes) it just stays low like hydraulic fluid is being squeezed out of the system. In a couple of seconds it rises back to the ride height. If I try bouncing the back of the car it feels really soft and bounces really nice.

Yesterday I've depressurized the whole system (releasing the pressure valve). And when setting things back to normal position (pressure release valve tightened) the car was rising on the back but just before it came to the ride height it just dropped suddenly. Is that normal? Wouldn't surprise me if it would be... :roll:
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by Dommo »

xantos wrote:Thank you for the useful information. It's becoming quite a challenge trying to make the hydraulics work as it should.

Another symptom... When the car is running and on ride height when I try to bounce it in the front it is soft but it doesn't bounce back (sometimes) it just stays low like hydraulic fluid is being squeezed out of the system. In a couple of seconds it rises back to the ride height. If I try bouncing the back of the car it feels really soft and bounces really nice.
The ride height ''sticking' briefly sounds like the system switching to hard mode. One of the many reasons that the system switches to hard mode when the front anti roll bar moves excessively, there's a sensor on the front ARB that detects excessive movement, and it switches to hard mode if it does, there's no sensor like this on the rear ARB, hence why it only switches to hard when you do it at the front

Yesterday I've depressurized the whole system (releasing the pressure valve). And when setting things back to normal position (pressure release valve tightened) the car was rising on the back but just before it came to the ride height it just dropped suddenly. Is that normal? Wouldn't surprise me if it would be... :roll:
It shouldn't be normal, but my VSX does this. It's when the car is raising the rear ride height (by filling the CORNER spheres) when the electrovalve isn't fully opened, through wear or a lazy electrovalve, or a possible electrical fault in your case. Basically the ride height increases, the rear corner spheres fill with pressure, the centre sphere is still flat. Once the electrovalves finally open the rear centre sphere and rear corners are now all connected, so the corners fill up the centre sphere and cause a ride height drop as they do so, it should rise back up again once the pump has caught up with the rest of the system

apologies if this is a bit hard to understand!
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by Mandrake »

Dommo wrote:The ride height ''sticking' briefly sounds like the system switching to hard mode. One of the many reasons that the system switches to hard mode when the front anti roll bar moves excessively, there's a sensor on the front ARB that detects excessive movement, and it switches to hard mode if it does, there's no sensor like this on the rear ARB, hence why it only switches to hard when you do it at the front
Although there is indeed a body movement sensor attached to the front roll bar, as far as I know the ECU does not act upon it while the car is stationary, thus bouncing the front suspension should not trigger a switch to hard mode. It certainly doesn't on either my previous or current Xantia, and the body movement sensors definitely work on both cars. (it switches to hard when the car traverses a sudden rise or drop in the road at speed...)

It does sound like the suspension is switching to hard mode when being bounced though, but it won't be the movement sensor causing it. I would check first to see whether the suspension is electrically switching to hard mode or whether its a hydraulic problem. To monitor the electrical hard/soft switching, connect an LED to the front electrovalve voltage through a 680 ohm resistor. Eg pin 1 of the white plug to a 680 ohm resistor, the other side of the resistor to the positive of the LED and the negative of the LED to pin 15 of the white plug.

The LED will be off in hard mode, bright for 0.5 seconds after switching to soft mode (full 12 volts) then medium brightness during normal soft mode. (3 volts) I had an LED situated between the dashboard and windscreen on mine with a cable running back into the engine bay to monitor the hard/soft switching during driving...

Watching this LED while bouncing the front will show us whether its an electrical issue or a hydraulic issue.
It shouldn't be normal, but my VSX does this. It's when the car is raising the rear ride height (by filling the CORNER spheres) when the electrovalve isn't fully opened, through wear or a lazy electrovalve, or a possible electrical fault in your case. Basically the ride height increases, the rear corner spheres fill with pressure, the centre sphere is still flat. Once the electrovalves finally open the rear centre sphere and rear corners are now all connected, so the corners fill up the centre sphere and cause a ride height drop as they do so, it should rise back up again once the pump has caught up with the rest of the system
Agreed - in theory this shouldn't happen, but most of them do it from time to time, and I wouldn't necessarily worry about it, unless there is a long delay between the suspension finishing lifting up and then dropping down again.
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by xantos »

So the electrical layout should look like this:

Image
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by Mandrake »

Yes that's correct. :)

I only used one LED monitoring the front electrovalve because front and rear should always switch together, however there is no harm in monitoring both. The Activa electrovalve on pin 9 will operate at different times than the other two and will be in the reverse sense - it should light up during hard cornering while the other two will go off.

The normal front and rear electrovalves should also switch to hard (LED off) during heavy acceleration and braking, however I believe the Activa electrovalve will only come on during (hard) cornering and not during straight ahead acceleration and deceleration. (Note: I've never driven an Activa so this is supposition based on the system design)
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by isisalar »

It is possible to hear the state of the electro valves through the car radio ie on or off. I'm not sure of the legality of publishing the frequency so I'll leave that one to Jim.
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by myglaren »

^ What? So Jim goes to jail :twisted:
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by Mandrake »

From what I remember, if you tune around on the Longwave band you'll hear it. You won't hear it on Medium Wave or FM, so if you have a radio without Longwave you're out of luck.

The problem with this though is that on a Hydractive 2 both electrovalves work in unison, but on an Activa you have a third electrovalve which does its own thing, and in most circumstances is doing the opposite of the other two, so you wouldn't know which electrovalves were causing the whine...
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by taffy »

hahaha thats funny as!! so the radio can also be used as a diagnostic tool...if only it said welcome to lexia would u like to reset ur fault codes hahahaaaa :) we wish lol!!!
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by xantos »

I have done the light diodes mode and here is how it looks:
Image

The green and yellow are for the front and back electrovalves and the red is for activa electrovalve.

As far as I can tell the electrovalves are working, but the car is still stiff. Like I said it was a jolly good ride, when they were switched to 12V (which was wrong but nonetheless)...
Ok here is how they operate:
- ignition on; ON
- opening door, ignition off; ON for quite a few minutes
- closing door, ignition off; ON for half a minute
- slow accelerating (cruising) and gear change; OFF/ON every gear change (but just when starting the car from stand until 5th gear, then they are ON if I change gear)
- sport button on; ON (they should be OFF right?)

The activa valve switches ON on cornering (cruising speed) and not only on hard cornering.

I hadn't done many miles since the light diode mode because the "push bearing" on the clutch has failed, so it's on repair at the moment. Never a dull moment with this car :evil:

Since I have the car on stand decided to clean the height regulators and the filters in the LHM tank. They were really messy.
The front height regulator is really difficult to dismount it from the car...
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by xantos »

The car is back on the road! :-D

But of course some new problems... I had to change one pipe on the LHM filter because the old one just fell apart.
Just improvised with what had at hand and this is how it looks (it's not nice and maybe causing me problems):
Image

Also changed the rear arm bearings and the wheels are still not aligned as they should be, but it will have to do.

The main problem is the elctrovalves. They are just not functioning right. They were working ok, and when I was doing citroaerobics they were starting to click and the back of the car was jumping a bit (the red and green for front and back valve and the middle red for activa):
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=fvgwhe&s=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I unplugged the F8 fuse a few times and they seemed to be ok, but now when I drive they work fine for sometime and then go off and so on. Sometimes the valves are on but the activa valve seems not and then again they work ok...

When they are working the back of the car is soft, but the front just gives in and then slowly rises.

Help please! [-o<
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by xantos »

Forgot to mention...

When the car is on the highest position the rear won't drop when set to normal. Must set to low it drops then back to normal and it rises...
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

That could be down to a sticking height corrector. My previous Xantia (6 sphere) had this, and cleaning it up resolved it.
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Re: Xantia stuck in hard mode

Post by xantos »

xantos wrote: Since I have the car on stand decided to clean the height regulators and the filters in the LHM tank. They were really messy.
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
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Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
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