C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

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Jonfromnorwich
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C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by Jonfromnorwich »

Hi guys firstly i would like to say a big hello to you all from Norfolk!
Ive been a C5 owner for about 8 years on and off and have never had any problems with the cars ive owned.
I have just bought an 04 C5 2.0 HDI VTR Auto (my first auto) and im slightly worried about the gearbox.
Gearchange between 1st and 2nd is a bit dodgy at normal or harder acceleration. It seems as if it slips slightly when engaging 2nd gear. It seems to be the same when either cold or hot.
If pulling away slowly ( like your grandad drives )it goes into 2nd gear without a problem.
All other gearchanges are nice and smooth. The cars only done 102000 miles with FSH but there is no record of a change of oil in the gearbox.
Could i be lucky with just a change of oil? Or is is it something more sinister?

Many thanks in advance

Jon
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Mandrake
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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by Mandrake »

Hi Jon,

Hopefully others will chime in with their opinion, but at 102,000 miles it could well be something sinister I'm afraid. :( It should most definitely not be slipping when engaging 2nd gear, and it could be an early warning sign of impending failure.

I'm not sure without looking up your VIN whether your car has a 4HP20 or an AL4, probably the latter as I think on the C5 the 4HP20 is only used on the 3 litre V6 petrol and 2.2HDi, but either way they both have a habit of dying with little or no warning past 100,000 miles. :(

There is no recommended service interval for oil changes for either gearbox, they are "sealed for life" according to Citroen, so you're unlikely to see any record of an oil change. Speculation amongst those of us who have had failed or nearly failed AL4/4HP20 boxes is that the lack of any prescribed oil change interval is why they die early, and those that did get oil changes through their life last much longer than average. Unfortunately it seems that the "life" in sealed for life is about 10 years or 100,000 miles on these boxes, long enough for the manufacturer to get out of any liability.

When you say you've only "just" bought it, do you mean literally in the last few days or weeks ? And did it exhibit this symptom right from the beginning ? Dealer or private sale ? If it was a dealer sale and it did it right from the get go I would seriously consider going back to them with the issue on the basis that it's not fit for sale, chances are left untreated the box will fail at some point in the near future if the clutches are slipping, (especially if driven hard or used for towing) which depending on how much the car is worth will probably write it off as its uneconomic to rebuild the gearbox or find a trustworthy replacement. (A 2nd hand box of similar mileage from a scrappy could be as bad or worse with no way to know until all the work of swapping it is done)

If it was a private sale or you find yourself stuck with the car and need to make the best of the situation then my suggestion would be to first find someone nearby with a Lexia (one of the sticky threads has a list of forum members with Lexia's) to get a diagnostic session run on the gearbox - if the clutches really are slipping there may be a fault code logged - although how much slip is required to log a fault I'm not sure, I've certainly seen a slipping clutches fault logged on an AL4 that I looked at that was loosing all drive after a while due to low oil pressure.

If you do see faults for a slipping clutch logged it might be useful evidence of a problem if you are going back to the seller. If it doesn't register any slipping clutch fault things might not be quite as bad, if its an AL4 the Lexia can also measure the "rail pressure" which is the main hydraulic pressure used to engage the clutches, there is a desired figure and an actual figure - they should track fairly close to each other. This can be monitored in real time while someone drives the car to see if there is any obvious loss of pressure.

The second thing I would do if trying to make the best of the situation you're in is to do one or more oil changes on the gearbox. Depending on the cause of the problem you might find that 2 or 3 oil changes spaced over a few weeks fixes the problem, each oil change only drains about half the oil out which is why it can take multiple changes to get the oil clean if its really dirty. I had to do this on my 4HP20 which was showing signs of impending failure, making nasty groaning noises etc, and had absolutely black oil in it. It took a total of 4 changes to get the oil back to a nearly clean state, the symptoms it had are now gone and it's running quite well, touch wood.

There is no guarantee that oil changes will help, but its about the only thing you can do to an automatic gearbox short of a full rebuild, however autos are very sensitive to the cleanliness of the oil, it often does help and certainly did in my case so its worth a shot if you're keeping the car. These boxes are very particular about the oil used, it must be Mobil / Esso LT71141 and there is a particular procedure to drain and refill it and check the level, if you go ahead with an oil change let us know which box you have and someone will post up the procedure...

Fingers crossed its nothing too serious. [-o<
Simon

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Jonfromnorwich
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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by Jonfromnorwich »

Thanks,that makes very interesting reading. I will try and find out as much as i can on tuesday when my local mechanic is back to work.
Luckily i got the car for what i think was a decent price so am prepared to spend a little on it and i have a alfa diesel as back up.
I will look to see about the lexia threads

Thanks Jon
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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by Mandrake »

Well if you're keeping the car then definitely do some gearbox oil changes, you have little to loose apart from the cost of the oil, and possibly a lot to gain. Each oil change is approximately 4 litres. Check the colour and condition of the oil that comes out on the first change - new oil is a light yellow colour. Page 21 of the following thread shows the condition of the oil after each change on mine, as you can see the first one was totally and utterly black:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... &start=300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You'll find the list of Lexia owners here: (updated list near the end of the thread)

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 19&t=29178" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Simon

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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by spider »

Not a lot I can add although its not my area its essential to use the correct oil in these, filling with anything else ie some normal red ATF of some type is a recipe for serious problems.

I think sealed for life should read as "warranty life" rather than the life of the car really. Personally I suspect (same as extended servicing and oil changes) is to reduce total ownership cost to large fleet buyers as this TCO is what they will look at over say three years when determining what to order.

A few changes may be needed to get it all out, I had this on a GM box and once it had had 3 good changes it was actually OK (once I'd sorted a dodgy selector switch as well)
Andy.

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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Jon, when you change the oil it is ESSENTIAL you only use the right stuff, otherwise you will destroy the gearbox. This might be useful to know about, based on how many changes Mandrake had to do;

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=43567" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you find it is a 4HP20, and it needs work, this is also a useful place to look;

http://www.eastment.net/4hp20/4hp20_introduction.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
James
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Jonfromnorwich
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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by Jonfromnorwich »

Thanks evryone for your comments and help. Just one question i would like to ask.......If it is possibly just a change of gearbox oil 2 or 3 times, then why would the problem only happen from changing to 1st to 2nd and not the other gear changes?
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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by Mandrake »

1st and 2nd gear put the most load on some of the clutches due to the high torque output going to the differential in low gears. Because of this some auto gearboxes apply higher hydraulic pressure to operate the clutches in 1st and 2nd than they do in higher gears to ensure the clutches don't slip, so if there is a problem with low system pressure the clutches are more likely to slip in lower gears.

Or it could be that one of the clutches that is locked up for 2nd gear is badly worn and slips but doesn't cause symptoms in higher gears because its not locked up in those gears or is under less load.

Without knowing the exact gearbox you have and studying the configuration of the clutches etc its impossible to know for sure but the way automatic gearboxes work means that a problem with a specific clutch will only affect certain combinations of gears and not others. (Only gears where that clutch is locked would be affected)
Simon

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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by KevMayer »

I've just been helping a friend to sort out an AL4 box on a petrol Peugeot 806.

From the info I downloaded for the AL4 box, it uses a combination of 3 clutches and 2 brake bands.

First and second gear use a different clutch each but they both use the same brake band.

Gears 3 and 4 don't use this brake band (it's a 4 speed box). Could it be a slipping brake band?
Cheers, Kev

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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by Mandrake »

Is it actually an old fashioned brake band (a strap around a pulley) or is it just a brake clutch, which is a clutch that clamps to the housing instead of another wheel... the 4HP20 has no brake "bands" but I'm not sure about the AL4.
Simon

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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by KevMayer »

There are 3 clutches in the AL4 and one of them is a brake clutch where one side of the clutch is attached to the gearbox housing.

The 2 brake bands are, as you say, a band around a drum.

A piston actuator pushes on one end of the band to tighten it on the drum when called for by the ECU.
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by ttellof »

My C5 VTR 1.6 diesel Auto seems to have the same problem. Slipping from 1st to 2nd gears its only a few seconds but its not like other autos I have driven. Is changing the gearbox oil an easy thing to do as I have never had to do this before. Are there special tools I need for the job and is there a filter to be changed. Are there any web sites that can give diagrams of the gearbox and how to do it. Any help will be appreciated.
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Re: C5 Auto gearbox Problem?

Post by CitroJim »

ttellof wrote: Is changing the gearbox oil an easy thing to do as I have never had to do this before.
Your car will have a different gearbox to the one discussed in this thread.. All automatic gearboxes have a different filling procedure and require a specific grade of ATF...

If we know the type of gearbox fitted to your 1.6 someone should be able to assist..
Jim

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