Garage negligence - what now ?

[Gibbo2286]

I understand your annoyance Mandrake I'd be the same but then I've learned to always re-check the wheel nuts whenever they've been off even if I've done them myself.

I once had to sack a young mechanic for leaving things loose, he simply didn't have the strength in his wrists to tighten stuff properly.

[Mandrake]

The thing is I always check wheel bolts are tight after getting new tires or wheel balancing done, but this time I didn't and I'm not sure why I overlooked it.

Maybe I'm annoyed that I got caught out the one time I didn't check them for myself but lets face it, how many average motorists check their wheel bolts are tight after servicing ? I'd wager that despite any disclaimers on the invoice that number would be very close to zero, and I would argue that well under half the car driving population would be both physically strong enough and competent enough to check wheel bolts are tight even if they gave it a second thought. It really is the mechanics responsibility to double check their own work or have a colleague check it when it affects safety and the average punter doesn't have the skill to check their own wheel bolts are satisfactory tight.

Should I also take the wheels off and inspect carefully any work that a mechanic does to the brakes on my car just to make sure they haven't made a mistake there too ? I'm the sort of person that would actually do that, (except that I do all brake work myself anyway) but I shouldn't have to. Where do you draw the line...

[addo]

Well, you end up with 10K in tooling, and bartering with a workshop to use their hoists and bulk supplies at quiet times. Then they start calling you to come and help when they're a man down, and before you know it, you've become your own enemy.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

I'm Afraid ATS and Kwik Fit do have that discalimer though. i wouldn't waste my Money at Citroen for a Trye anyway even if they did have the dam balencing machine. I always insist I do up the wheel nuts by hand using a torque wrench I dont want to call out the breakdown company because I can't get a wheel off that has been over tightened by an air powered tool.

at the end of the day Life is far to stressful enough as it is and if the engine had fell out ,like my fathrers did when he drove out of a clutch fitting centre there would be plenty of course for complaint and a significant amount of proof 10 ft from the garage door but getting yourself this wound up over a few wheel nuts isnt worth it relax take a breath do them up and carry on. (spread the word gently to others who will avoid that garage ultimately if they so please) Knowing that your grateful for your own sensiable ability to check things over periodically for safteys sake,

[Mandrake]

Mandrake,
Look on the website link below, it shows a gauge with the allowable area that you can repair a tyre. Print it out and place on the tyre. I have used this to argue the toss with a repairer who was trying to get me to purchase a new tyre. Bit too late for you now but maybe for the next puncture.

Thanks, that's quite helpful, I'll check that against my tire later as I remember where the screw was in the tread.

I usually get my tyres from Black circles and their list of fitters say if they can do centre less wheels or not.

Ah, bingo.

I searched black circle's list of affiliates and there is one that is walking distance from home, even closer than Citroen, looks like a small independent and it lists them as being able to balance centerless alloys. I gave them a quick phone to confirm, yes they can do centerless alloys and it would be £10. For the sake of all the hassle that I've had I might just take it there and see what they can do and tell the others to get lost and why if they ever phone back. My principles are feeling a bit ruffled, but I just need the car to be working properly.

[Northern_Mike]

Pretty well any garage or tyre fitting company nowadays will have a note on their invoice saying 'Check tightness of wheel nuts after thirty miles' or words to that effect the reason being that wheels and particularly alloy wheels can settle after fitting, did you read your invoice?

You can't be serious can you ? It's my fault now ?

I don't wish to be funny here, or appear that I'm being a tw@t, but unless I've stood and watched them tighten my wheel nuts, or done it myself, I *always* check that they've been done up properly before I leave the forecourt. EVERY single time.

Why? I helped out in a garage when I was a kid in the school holidays. The proprietor once forgot to tighten the rear wheel nuts on a transit camper he'd replaced a half-shaft on.. Fortunately it was only going slowly when the wheel came off. That taught me a lesson, because he was the most dilligent person I've ever seen. Everyone can forget once in blue moon.

[Northern_Mike]

It really is the mechanics responsibility to double check their own work or have a colleague check it when it affects safety and the average punter doesn't have the skill to check their own wheel bolts are satisfactory tight.

This is rather beginning to sound a little bit OTT now. Everyone I know who drives a car, including my 62 year old mum is perfectly capable of changing a wheel. One would presume, therefore, they have that skill..

[Northern_Mike]

I'm Afraid ATS and Kwik Fit do have that discalimer though. i wouldn't waste my Money at Citroen for a Trye anyway even if they did have the dam balencing machine. I always insist I do up the wheel nuts by hand using a torque wrench :

Use a decent tyre company. All the ones I use *DO* do up the wheels with a Torque wrench, whether the customer is present or not. I know this as I always hang around the bays when they are doing mine, and have seen it with my own eyes.

Then again, I avoid all the national chains like the plague..

[Mandrake]

It really is the mechanics responsibility to double check their own work or have a colleague check it when it affects safety and the average punter doesn't have the skill to check their own wheel bolts are satisfactory tight.

This is rather beginning to sound a little bit OTT now. Everyone I know who drives a car, including my 62 year old mum is perfectly capable of changing a wheel. One would presume, therefore, they have that skill..

Now you're being a bit silly Mike. I'm glad your mum can change a tire, but I know and have seen a lot of people who just aren't cut out for doing it, especially depending on the type of vehicle.

Lets face it, even getting the spare wheel out of the spare wheel carrier on a Xantia is a pig of a job, especially when everything is rusted up. Then you have big SUV type vehicles with huge wheels that are most likely too heavy for some of the more delicate members of society to even lift let alone manuevre from the spare wheel carrier onto the hub.

I fear that you grossly underestimate how unable many people are to do these sort of jobs that we take for granted.

[dnsey]

Whenever I remove a wheel, I put the trim cap some little distance away. Going to get it reminds me to check the wheelbolt torque even if I 'know' that I've already done so. An equivalent procedure should be mandatory for a professional workplace.

[evilally]

I would probably write a letter to Citroen UK and not bother with the franchise as they will probably just ignore you. Car manufacturers have clout with dealerships and can get stuff done. It's also clearly a health and safety issue which you could probably explore further if you don't get anywhere.

As for wheels nuts, yes I always check them when I'm home. However the problem is not that they're loose, by way over tightened. A wheel bolt torqued up too high can be just as dangerous as one that's not torqued enough. They are far more likely to fracture.

[daviemck2006]

The last twice I have had new tyres fitted have driven home and checked the nuts and couldn't move them. I would agree that this incident was caused solely by the incompetent fool doing the job. It could have had serious consequences buy gladly it didn't. I would write to Citroen and inform them of the problem, and complain that the garage has made a big, serious mistake. We all make mistakes and hopefully this is one which will not be repeated.

[Hell Razor5543]

I recently completed the hydraflush cycle on Gracie. When I got ready to bleed the brakes I took off all the wheel trims, put them in a pile to one side, and then put the torque wrench on top of the pile. That way I made sure to remind myself to get the wheel bolts tightened up correctly. I have learned (both through personal experience and through watching/listening to others) to prepare the job properly. That way everything gets done right.

Anyway, this isn't helping Mandrake with his problem. I still think the best option is to write a clear, concise letter detailing the problems, and send it to both the dealership and to Citroen UK. No demands or threats, no pointing out what the consequences could have been, just the facts as far as you are aware. Concern about the drop in standards from what you have experienced could be mentioned. As parts have gone missing it could be worth finding out how much replacements would cost (from Citroen themselves), and putting those details (costs, part numbers, etc.) into the letter.

I heard a story (I don't know if it is true, but the garage concerned did exist, and the manager was the sort of person to do what he did) that a person took his car in for servicing. On his was home, somebody cut across him, and forced him to stop. It turned out that the cut-up person (who had been following the serviced car) spotted a wheel wobble on the OSR wheel. Upon investigation, all the wheel bolts on every wheel were loose. The garage was contacted (from a nearby payphone (mobile phones didn't exists then)), and they came out straight away with their pickup truck. They collected the car and driver, and took them straight back to the garage. Before anything was done the manager came out and spoke to the driver. He offered a full refund (which was accepted), and then offered a full inspection of the work, stating that if the driver wasn't happy for it to be done there, he (the driver) could suggest any other garage to do the inspection, and the garage would pay the costs of the inspection. Furthermore, the next 2 services would be free of labour charges, and (again) they could be done at any other garage of the driver wasn't happy for them to do the work. The driver let the original garage do the work, and didn't have any further problems. I believe he continued to use them for as long as he lived in the area.

[Mandrake]

Oooh the irony, a couple of weeks ago I got an automated survey email from Citroen to ask me how my recent servicing experience was.

I forgot about it but a reminder email to fill in the survey came again, so I filled it in, detailed the reasons why I was unhappy with their service and ticked the option that said to pass on the details to Citroen UK and the Dealer...(the survey is an anonymous survey handled by a 3rd party but has the option to provide non-anonymous feedback including contact details...)

I did actually choose no to the option that says "do you want the dealer to contact you" as I don't particularly want to talk to them, (I've said my piece) but at least they'll see the reason why I won't be coming back again.

PS a couple of weeks ago I took the car back to National Tyres and Autocare who fitted the new tyres last time, a 15 mile drive from home, they were able to fit me in the same day and balanced the wheel for a tenner... its not absolutely perfect but its close enough. I phoned 4 other tyre shops who were unable to balance centerless rims before going back to National as it took them 3 goes to get it right last time I went there, luckily first time lucky this time!

I think there is a loose joint on the front left side (lower balljoint ? Or maybe the worn lower arm bushes ?) that magnifies any slight wheel imbalance into a rattle so I might swap that wheel back to the front right where it originally came from. Most of the time there is no vibration but at a very specific speed around 75mph there is still a just noticeable vibration but only on some road surfaces...or possibly only when the car is freewheeling ? (Eg not braking or accelerating) Hard to tell exactly as symptoms seem intermittent.