Time for a new Battery?

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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by myglaren »

Ben82 wrote: Should also mention that in looking around there seems to be a distinct void in between these "cheap" ones and ones that cost £50+, can get a UT50A one for about £38, but it doesn't seem to have an option for 10A?
Specs say 20A AC & DC on that one.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

myglaren wrote:
Ben82 wrote: Should also mention that in looking around there seems to be a distinct void in between these "cheap" ones and ones that cost £50+, can get a UT50A one for about £38, but it doesn't seem to have an option for 10A?
Specs say 20A AC & DC on that one.
Going to sound really stupid now... as I was thinking the 10A thing was for the precision too (which the selection does affect precision), but not between the ones for 10A and 20A.... I haven't had coffee today, that's my excuse anyway.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Mandrake »

20 amps is fine too. Most digital meters go up to 200mA (0.2 amps) with a small high resistance shunt, and then jump directly to 10 amps or 20 amps using a much heavier lower resistance shunt on a separate input terminal. You would never connect the 200mA range in series with a car battery as any device coming on drawing more than a few hundred milliamps or so is going to burn out the shunt in the meter or blow the internal fuse if it has one.

A 10 or 20 amp range is safe to use as long as you don't try to start the engine (a starter draws hundreds of amps) or turn on any heavy accessories. (Blower fans are sometimes 20-30 amps on full speed)

Another thing to bear in mind is just because the meter supports a 10/20 amp range doesn't mean the supplied probes can handle that current...as the wires are typically thin copper with lots of insulation for high voltages...if you were actually measuring high currents you would want to use heavier duty cables to the meter... but for your test looking for leakage current around 200mA the supplied probes will be fine.
Last edited by Mandrake on 27 Jan 2013, 12:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by myglaren »

On that one the DC V accuracy is quoted as (best figure) 0.5%
Which will be with the voltage measured approximately in the centre of the range so 20V range for 12V.

Likewise with DC Amps - .08%

Start with it on the highest range and reduce until the current draw is in the middle (approx) of the range selected.

There is also this Clamp Meter that allows you to measure current through conductors without disconnecting them, accuracy 0.8% which would be adequate as you are only needing to have an approximate figure to verify excessive or normal current draw. Also measures V & Ω
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

myglaren wrote:On that one the DC V accuracy is quoted as (best figure) 0.5%
Which will be with the voltage measured approximately in the centre of the range so 20V range for 12V.

Likewise with DC Amps - .08%

Start with it on the highest range and reduce until the current draw is in the middle (approx) of the range selected.

There is also this Clamp Meter that allows you to measure current through conductors without disconnecting them, accuracy 0.8% which would be adequate as you are only needing to have an approximate figure to verify excessive or normal current draw. Also measures V & Ω
Looked for one similar and found one here for not too much more... but if I'm reading that right, it has a minimum DC Current reading of 40A? So won't read down to the ~200mA that Simon is talking about?
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Normally on multi meters the numbers denote the upper end of the scale.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by myglaren »

Absolutely right Ben. Ignore that one.

If you have to leave it at the airport it might be as well to disconnect the battery. This comes with it's own problems of course but if the battery is OK and the problem is a current leak then your problems will be greater on returning.
If you can pinpoint a leak you could at least pull the fuse for that circuit, assuming it is a non-critical one, when leaving the car. (Temporary measure, naturally).

My estate suffered from a similar problem, first suspect was the starter, then the battery. Replaced the battery only to find that it was perfectly OK. It went back in and the car is no longer mine, battery kept charged in case I need a spare for this one.
Never found the leak and assume it still does it.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by DickieG »

Rather than faff about with standard volt/amp meters, to correctly test a battery you really need to use a "Midtronics" battery tester, PSA recommend their own model called the EXP 925 and in just a minute or two you will have the definitive answer about the condition of the battery. Interestingly on newer cars such as my X7 C5 there is a procedure in Lexia for battery replacement where the car needs to be informed of the specification and actual performance of the new battery by way of readings taken from the Midtronics tester which are linked via infra-red directly to Lexia. Such a procedure has been around for a few years now and may also apply to earlier model C5's.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by mooseshaver »

DickieG wrote: Interestingly on newer cars such as my X7 C5 there is a procedure in Lexia for battery replacement where the car needs to be informed of the specification and actual performance of the new battery by way of readings taken from the Midtronics tester which are linked via infra-red directly to Lexia. Such a procedure has been around for a few years now and may also apply to earlier model C5's.
That's a pain. Any idea what happens if you just replace it?
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Mandrake »

DickieG wrote:Rather than faff about with standard volt/amp meters, to correctly test a battery you really need to use a "Midtronics" battery tester, PSA recommend their own model called the EXP 925 and in just a minute or two you will have the definitive answer about the condition of the battery.
Good grief, talk about getting over technical. :roll: How much exactly does this single purpose "Midtronics battery tester" cost ? Trying to obtain one where Ben lives is likely to be a lot more faffing around than testing with an inexpensive readily available multimeter.

Lead acid batteries are not complicated beasts and don't require high tech equipment to diagnose, a multimeter is more than enough. If the charging voltage is correct, there is no excessive current drain when the car is off and yet the battery is still flat of low in charge when measured after sitting then the battery is faulty. End of story. No complicated proprietary or computerised tools are required to come to this conclusion...
Interestingly on newer cars such as my X7 C5 there is a procedure in Lexia for battery replacement where the car needs to be informed of the specification and actual performance of the new battery by way of readings taken from the Midtronics tester which are linked via infra-red directly to Lexia. Such a procedure has been around for a few years now and may also apply to earlier model C5's.
Sigh. More useless and unnecessary complications in new cars. :roll: Soon you won't be able to put air in the tyres without a computers permission... :lol:
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewit ... 1209562729" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:o ouch I could buy 2 batteries over here for that!!
I think I prefer the faff solution :)

Anyway 1/3 tests done, battery voltage when running fluctuates somewhere within the 14.20-14.29V range so seemingly spot on :)

Have lowered the suspension too for the drain test just in case that somehow wants to kick in. Hopefully the crocodile clip adapter will work alright too, going to have to be doing it alone unfortunately.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

Ok have made a slight booboo. Dropped the red crocodile clamp somewhere near the front of the positive terminal on the battery, and now can't find it!! Not sure where it's gone, thing is it's about the size of the KeyFob so should be easily seen but isn't lol. Not sure where to look anymore, I'm guessing I'm going to need to start the engine to get the suspension on high to look from underneath.

Black one looks like this:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1359318371.925556.jpg
As you can see it doesnt really have any metal exposed too much, so I don't think it's going to cause any issues, but of course not knowing where it is hiding isn't really much help.

EDIT: can't find it, took the car out to get some petrol too, couldn't see if it had dropped anywhere on my way back, so guessing it's still there... mainly would like it back so I can take them back as they aren't very good.

Will do test #3 in the morning (if I have time/remember), Not sure how I'm going to do test #2 alone.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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I've taken a number of readings for #3....
This morning, the voltage was ~12.25V, and had the problem, drove daughter to school (~15mins), and retested there. ~12.52V, when starting, no issue. Drove back and retested, ~12.72V (sometimes I just drop her and go, so no engine off, but thought I would split it in two anyway today). Last night before getting petrol (after letting it settle to try to see if I could do test #2) it did read 12.82V.

It's slightly warmer today too about 2C, maybe a contributing factor to it being ok after 15mins.

So it would seem that my average short journeys are not an issue for charging the battery back up to capacity.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by DickieG »

Mandrake wrote:
DickieG wrote:Rather than faff about with standard volt/amp meters, to correctly test a battery you really need to use a "Midtronics" battery tester, PSA recommend their own model called the EXP 925 and in just a minute or two you will have the definitive answer about the condition of the battery.
Good grief, talk about getting over technical. :roll: How much exactly does this single purpose "Midtronics battery tester" cost ?
Not as much as you presumably think, i.e. Less than the cost of two car batteries, money well spent in my books as I'll know in advance whether a battery is on it's way out so I'll avoid a non-start situation plus I won't waste money replacing perfectly good batteries.
Mandrake wrote:Lead acid batteries are not complicated beasts and don't require high tech equipment to diagnose, a multimeter is more than enough. If the charging voltage is correct, there is no excessive current drain when the car is off and yet the battery is still flat of low in charge when measured after sitting then the battery is faulty. End of story. No complicated proprietary or computerised tools are required to come to this conclusion...
If only it was that simple Simon, Multimeters cannot tell you whether a cell collapses only under load hence why the Midtronics tool was developed.

The battery in my C5 passed all the tests you suggest plus a specific gravity test with a hydrometer but under load when starting a cell was starting to collapse, the Midtronics tool took all of 10 seconds to diagnose the fault and that included fitting the crocodile clips :-D
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by DickieG »

mooseshaver wrote:
DickieG wrote: Interestingly on newer cars such as my X7 C5 there is a procedure in Lexia for battery replacement where the car needs to be informed of the specification and actual performance of the new battery by way of readings taken from the Midtronics tester which are linked via infra-red directly to Lexia. Such a procedure has been around for a few years now and may also apply to earlier model C5's.
That's a pain. Any idea what happens if you just replace it?
If you replace like for like then I presume not a lot, interestingly the readings the Midtronics tool gives after testing a battery can vary quite a lot from the original specifications, the new one on my C5 rated a fair bit higher than it's original spec whereas an older (2-3 years) battery I keep as a general spare had deteriorated a little but is still showing as serviceable.
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