Time for a new Battery?

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Ben82
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

myglaren wrote:Swedish eBay seems to be particularly rubbish. Had a peek on there and the choice is abysmal and nothing sourced in Sweden at all.
This one is not unreasonable but if you are coming over then you can do better and cheaper.

I looked for Moraknivar and there was bugger all other than German sourced ones at stupid prices. Bought one from a Survival/bushcraft store here for much less but not the one I wanted (the original, cheap as chips model)
Proper Swedish ebay (ala http://www.tradera.se" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) is also fairly poor. :)

Really after ones either like this where it has a load testing switch built in, or a multimeter with the max/min function like this so I can do an equally deterministic test. Multimeter obviously gives a more variety of other uses than a straight Volt+LoadMeter so I am leaning more that way.
uhn113x wrote:Ben, where in UK are you going?
The good ol' Garden of England :)
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

On 31/1 Lidl will be doing some car parts, (which I have posted on the Lidl and Aldi Car Accessories), and one thing they are doing (for £2.99) is a battery/alternator tester. I think I shall get one.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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Hell Razor5543 wrote:On 31/1 Lidl will be doing some car parts, (which I have posted on the Lidl and Aldi Car Accessories), and one thing they are doing (for £2.99) is a battery/alternator tester. I think I shall get one.
Yeah they've got that here from Monday. It's just a light show one, so doesn't look much of an improvement on my cig socket tester.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by uhn113x »

uhn113x wrote:Ben, where in UK are you going?
The good ol' Garden of England :)[/quote]

There's a Maplin at Tunbridge Wells and they have one for a tenner:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/productsearch?c ... multimeter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the one I have several of, scattered around our cars and workshop. :-D
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

uhn113x wrote:
There's a Maplin at Tunbridge Wells and they have one for a tenner:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/productsearch?c ... multimeter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the one I have several of, scattered around our cars and workshop. :-D
Doesn't seem to have the max/min logging functionality which would allow me to test the battery under load.

Have had a long drive today to Stockholm, the problem so far has disappeared (with stopping halfway - was there when starting out), so would seem to be the battery not getting enough charge from the shorter journeys (15-30mins). Will be driving back tonight so can confirm then whether the long journey has allowed the battery to charge fully and get rid of the problem for now, but I think when I go back to doing the shorter journeys it'll reappear after a while.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by uhn113x »

Ben82 wrote: Doesn't seem to have the max/min logging functionality which would allow me to test the battery under load.
True, Ben, but to do that all you need is to measure battery voltage whilst operating the starter.
Have had a long drive today to Stockholm, the problem so far has disappeared (with stopping halfway - was there when starting out), so would seem to be the battery not getting enough charge from the shorter journeys (15-30mins). Will be driving back tonight so can confirm then whether the long journey has allowed the battery to charge fully and get rid of the problem for now, but I think when I go back to doing the shorter journeys it'll reappear after a while.
Might just be worth getting a spare battery and keeping it charged - that's what I would do if I lived in a colder place.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

Hmm, Happened again on the initial start coming back, though we did have a short journey from a rather expensive £5ph car park to somewhere we could park for free, so it may not have had time to recharge properly. Made a couple of stops on the way back, both times the issue didn't exist (they were approximately 45mins apart)...
I don't think it's cold weather (it was only -4C in Stockholm, so not too harsh on the battery).
It could viably be something draining the battery, but there appears to be no difference (e.g. in crankability) between if the car has been left for 8hours or ~14hours).. I would expect if the effect of a trickle drain for 14 hours to have a more severe (and noticeable) effect on crankability than 8 hours of draining).

Will find out a bit more tomorrow, as it's had the car charging it for well over an hour before being turned off.
uhn113x wrote:Might just be worth getting a spare battery and keeping it charged - that's what I would do if I lived in a colder place.
You mean replacing the battery and using the existing one as a backup? ;)
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Rather than a second battery, you could consider a jump starter unit. I have one (which has a built in air compressor as well), and all you do is to connect it to the battery for 10 - 15 minutes, and then (if there are no other issues) the car should start. You do need to charge up the jump starter unit, but as they normally have a PSU, and are (comparatively) light so taking it indoors to charge is not normally a problem.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:Rather than a second battery, you could consider a jump starter unit. I have one (which has a built in air compressor as well), and all you do is to connect it to the battery for 10 - 15 minutes, and then (if there are no other issues) the car should start. You do need to charge up the jump starter unit, but as they normally have a PSU, and are (comparatively) light so taking it indoors to charge is not normally a problem.
True, they're about half the price of a new battery, however if the battery is reaching the end of its life, I don't really want to be relying on the kit all the time.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by uhn113x »

Ben82 wrote: I don't think it's cold weather (it was only -4C in Stockholm, so not too harsh on the battery).
Brrrr ... You're making me cold! :shock:
You mean replacing the battery and using the existing one as a backup? ;)[/quote]
Absolutely.

HR
I have one of these as well - got it from Argos, but my reason for the spare battery was also to prove if the existing one was OK.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

But as you said in you previous posts, when you did a short drive the problem came back, but with longer drives it didn't. I do agree that it could be the battery, taking longer to charge, but it could be the alternator getting old and supplying less current (worn brushes), but it could also just be the cold conditions affecting the car.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Mandrake »

Ben, instead of all this frustrating guesswork and speculation you really just need to buy yourself a basic digital multimeter, they're not expensive... :roll: :lol:

Even a cheap one (£9.99) like this would do what you need:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/ut-132a-digital ... tor-518506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally I would go a bit more expensive in the £30 range, but the one I linked has voltage readings with an accuracy of 0.5% (important for judging the state of a battery by its voltage) and a 10 amp range for checking for excessive current drain when the car is turned off, so it has what you need.

I know its harder to find stuff like this where you are but even if you get a forum member to post one to you it won't be much! Once you have one you can diagnose the problem pretty quickly, and have a tool that will help you diagnose any future electrical faults...

You don't need min/max capture because without context (you don't know when and under what conditions the min and max occurred) the figure is useless! :)

The first thing to do is find out if your alternator is charging correctly. This is very easy to do - let the car run for 5-10 minutes for the battery to stabalize and then measure the terminal voltage with the car running. It should be 14.2 volts +/- 0.2 volts. If it is within this range the alternator and charging regulator is fine!

Less than 14 volts with the engine running means that the battery will not get fully charged, and this is likely the source of your problem, try measuring it again with the rpm increased to 1500 or so and if its still below 14 volts you definitely have a charging problem. More than 14.4 volts will damage the battery from overcharging, so if you see this it could also be the problem due to the battery being damaged by the charging system. (The battery will loose capacity to hold a charge)

If your reading was 14 - 14.4v and the charging system seems ok the next step is to check for excessive current drain with the car off. In a modern car like a C5 there will be a lot of electronic devices that may draw power when they shouldn't, for example the suspension pump...it takes a while for some of these systems to settle down so I would leave it turned off and leave all the doors closed (but the bonnet open and ready) for at least an hour for everything to go into economy / low power mode.

Now put your meter in 10 amp mode and connect it to the positive battery terminal and positive battery post (positive of the meter to the battery post) before disconnecting the battery terminal. What you need to do is keep a constant connection so that the devices in the car don't lose power as you slip the terminal off the battery post, after the terminal is off the post the current is flowing through the meter which is connected in series with the positive terminal lead. You might need a couple of alligator clip leads or a second pair of hands to do this successfully.

I'm going to take a guess here and suggest that normal idle current drain on a modern car with everything turned "off" should be below about 200ma. 200ma would discharge a 60 amp/hour battery in approximately 12.5 days, certainly not in one or two days. Let us know what the current figure is. Do NOT turn on the ignition or attempt to start the car with your amp meter connected or you will fry it...

Assuming that the current drain is not excessively high when the car is sitting that points the blame at the battery. To confirm this we want to take a voltage reading after the car has sat overnight, or in conditions where you strongly suspect the car will have difficulty starting based on previous behaviour. Before starting the car or turning anything on pop the bonnet and measure the battery voltage, a fully charged idle battery will be 12.6 volts, fully discharged is 11.7 volts, and there is a relatively linear relationship between those figures, for example 12.05 volts would be approximately 50% charge. (Remember these figures only apply when the battery is not charging or discharging)

If the charging system was fine, there was no excessive current drain while the car is idle, yet this voltage is indicating a low state of charge your battery is faulty. Replace it.

There is some good reading material on Lead acid batteries here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_acid_battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good luck. :)
Last edited by Mandrake on 27 Jan 2013, 09:37, edited 5 times in total.
Simon

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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by den169 »

uhn113x wrote:£5.53 from CPC.
http://cpc.farnell.com/_/in06139/digita ... dp/IN06139" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ben, where in UK are you going?
What can this monitor do i think i have a drain on power somewhere on my c5,I've put a new alternator and battery on but the car let me down in the cold last week.Only had the lternator and battery on 2 weeks.My m8 works at cpc.farnell so could get me one of these.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Mandrake »

den169 wrote:
uhn113x wrote:£5.53 from CPC.
http://cpc.farnell.com/_/in06139/digita ... dp/IN06139" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ben, where in UK are you going?
What can this monitor do i think i have a drain on power somewhere on my c5,I've put a new alternator and battery on but the car let me down in the cold last week.Only had the lternator and battery on 2 weeks.My m8 works at cpc.farnell so could get me one of these.
I wouldn't recommend that meter as it doesn't have a 10 amp current range, which would be needed to check if there is excessive current drain while the car is sitting. See my above post for some suggestions on how to troubleshoot these problems...
Simon

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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

Simon, Thanks once again for such an informative post... I've been looking around and have found
http://www.biltema.se/sv/Verktyg/Matver ... ter-15133/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Which seems to meet what you are saying? Can you double check? Seems to have a 10 amp function... the specs are on page 5 of this document.. It's only ~£9 too

EDIT:
Should also mention that in looking around there seems to be a distinct void in between these "cheap" ones and ones that cost £50+, can get a UT50A one for about £38, but it doesn't seem to have an option for 10A?

Problem with getting someone to send me one is that I am coming back to the UK this time next week, so getting one in time for that would be tight.. not sure I want to leave the car at the airport for a week with this issue either :S
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