C4 Rough Starting

[fifth_cit]

My son recently bought a C4 2.0 16v Diesel 2004 with 66k on the clock.

In the morning when it has been standing overnight it starts on 3 cylinders and runs like that for 10 to 15 seconds and then it is ok although it is using a lot of fuel (low to mid forties at 70). When he first got it it was much longer (>30 secs) before it ran on 4 and we put in some Millers treatment and it got better. We suspected a duff injector.

He took it back to where he got it which is a Honda Dealer and they put it out to a Pug specialist who has had it for about a week.

He says he has had it on a Lexia and injectors are fine, done a leak off test and all ok. He has replaced the fuel cap sensor and the car has been fully serviced with all new filters and still it has this rough start up when cold.

We went to see him today and he mentioned a lazy HP pump but does not have the kit to test it. He suggested running it for a few days to see if it got better. My son made arrangements with the dealer to do this but told them he is not happy as it still has the same problem.

Your thoughts greatly appreciated.

[Lighty]

Not sure ow conclusive a diesel leak off test is on these injectors, I had one in recently with a similar issue, and a leak off test didn't show anything.
Presuming that you have checked the glow plugs, and made sure that there are no air leaks, I would suspect that your injectors are the issue. The problem is the cost of these injectors is quite a few hundred quid each, so I suspect that you will struggle to get the garage to pay for them. Ps mid 40's mpg is quite reasonable for one of these.

[myglaren]

A leak off test failed to detect a duff injector on my C5 estate. Diesel specialist tested them all and found one not injecting below 3,000 rpm.
Refurbished the dud one for under £100 and all was well.

[fifth_cit]

Lighty is there anything we can do to test the injectors or is it down to a specialist like Myglaren says.

I mentioned the fuel consumption as this car has the same engine as mine and on that run I would get low 50's. Given the saving in weight we where hoping for more.

The pug man was also saying that the EGR valve might be at fault and causing the problem but seemed reluctant to either clean or replace it. Would it be worth a tin of Wynns cleaner up it so to speak.

Forgot to say that 3 or 4 times the car has displayed 'Water detected in fuel filter' and each time we have bled it. Something odd about this car, it had a full tank of diesel on the dealers forecourt and they say they hadn't filled it up.

[Lighty]

I believe the only way to test the injectors is with a specialist.I recently purchased a Delphi Diesel tester, to simply check the quality of the diesel. I have been getting an increasing amount of people running bio, and its a great idea for me to know right from the beginning that the fuel is ok.
EGR valves do fail, but you can simply blank it off to eliminate it for test purposes. trouble is on a C4 it is hard to get at, but you can access the shiny pipe where it goes into the plastic manifold, as its at the front of the engine. I have blocked them off at this point before. Doubt this will cause your starting issue though.
I think you should get the injectors tested, it is going to cost you, but at least the car should be right. Unfortunately the cost of repairing faulty diesel engines often way exceeds any fuel saving you get for some time.

[isisalar]

Fifth cit
I suspect from the information given that the fact the car has done a very low mileage about 7.5k a year could be a contributing factor, the real alarm bells rang though when you said the car had a full tank of diesel when purchased.
In my experience people run their cars as low as possible when disposing of them, and always fill them up when they've mis fueled them. Some then dispose of their car asap.
You may get some help from the dealer but don't hold your breath waiting.
I would, given that the Millers has improved things, get the tank pretty low and put in a strong mix of Slick 50 fuel system treatment. I have found that this is the only injector cleaner that actually works, and not that expensive. About £13 last time I bought some.
Kind regards
Paul

[fifth_cit]

We are going back to the Honda Dealer tomorrow to try and give them the problem back.

We have had both our cars running side by sise and his makes a loud ticking noise from around the injector area and we are going to point that out to their service manager.

Lighty what injector faults would the leak off test not prove or indeed prove. I would just like to be able to throw some faults into the conversation with the service manager.

regards

Keith

[isisalar]

If this is a franchised Honda dealer and the car was sold as 'approved' under a Honda backed scheme I think you have a fair chance of unraveling the deal. The car is now a 'hot potato' in their eyes and they will be paying close to retail labour rates for any work done by Citroen or injection specialists.
I would stress to them that the possible mis fueling may have done serious damage to the car and the present problems, lift pump and injectors, may just be the first of many(for them).
It's unlikely they knew of the problem and they're probably loosing money already. An offer by you to accept a replacement similar vehicle, which may be available through their network, would go down well. Either that or money back would be your best option, to offer them in my opinion.
Best of luck and let us know how you get on.
Kind regards
Paul

[RichardW]

I wonder if it's been deep water wading.... a compression test might be in order / a phone call to the previous owner:

Drowned C5 No 1
Drowned C5 No 2]

[fifth_cit]

Yes I take your point Richard, there's been an awfull lot of water around but I think these take their air in from near the top like mine does.

Car runs fine when it gets going, no smoke at all. I stood behind the other day while my son gave it a good rev, it blew dust up off the road but no smoke revving up or going down. Shame really car is a VTR+ and is unmarked inside or out.

Isisalar the Dealer is a Honda Main Dealer but the car is from their Carzone. Its says on the website carefully selected part exchanges from within their group and I know they have at least 2 Ford franchises. The cars come with 3 month warranty etc.
My son wants shut as he thinks it may never be right. They have been allright to deal with up to now but tomorrow may be a different story.

regards

Keith

[isisalar]

I doubt that Honda would countenance a scheme where their dealers were able to offer used cars with a limited warranty, other than the Honda backed scheme. A call to their customer service department would be productive methinks.
' I bought from a reputable franchised dealer because of the back up' is a phrase i would use.
Their franchise is very valuable to them and if they have sold you a car that you're unhappy with it's in their interest to resolve the situation.
Kind regards
Paul

[fifth_cit]

My son took the car back to the Honda Dealer who could not have been nicer. They have assured him that it will be repaired properly, have sent it to a Citroen Dealership and have given him a 62 plate Honda Jazz to use whilst its away. This is really costing them now.

My son said that he was concerned that by the time it came back they would have had it longer than him and that his 3 month warranty was running out fast, but they say they will start the warranty again when it it comes back.

I will let you know the outcome.

regards

Keith

[Fake Concern]

My son took the car back to the Honda Dealer who could not have been nicer. They have assured him that it will be repaired properly, have sent it to a Citroen Dealership and have given him a 62 plate Honda Jazz to use whilst its away. This is really costing them now.

My son said that he was concerned that by the time it came back they would have had it longer than him and that his 3 month warranty was running out fast, but they say they will start the warranty again when it it comes back.

I will let you know the outcome.

regards

Keith

That is really good service, it's hard to imagine what more they could do. Hope they resolve it properly.

[Xantidote]

All sounds very good so far

[myglaren]

Very encouraging.
Clearly not the Honda dealer where my cousin had bought a brand new upmarket Honda ever year for 23 years then was treated like crap when she tried to get them to fix dangerous failings on a one month old Civic.
Dumped it and went to the Peugeot dealer across the road, drives Puegeots now.