C5 - Oil pressure insufficient [solved]

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Northern_Mike

Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Northern_Mike »

Ben82 wrote:Other Half has heard back from the mechanics (obviously she is translating Swedish to English, so somethings may not translate very well, their "Citroen Guy" also wasn't in today, so not sure on competence).....

They have said that the V6 doesn't have a sensor for the oil pressure to give off this message, and the sensor would be for low oil (which it obviously isn't low on). They can do something to stop this message from occurring (not sure I like the sound of this!), by replacing the part (which is about £15, guess it could be that switch i was talking about).

But they have also noticed a ticking from the engine (cue my previous thread!: http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=42529" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), local mechanic said it was nothing serious and was fine to ignore ("just turn the radio up!"). These have said there's a vibration, and a tiny electric shock when touching a certain part of the engine.. which apparently shouldn't happen... they have said the vibration is probably down to bad oil, and there is dirt in the engine, and it would need cleaning, potentially needing a new oil filter (hope not as that should have been changed at the last service)


They said the clean would cost about £200.

Does this sound likely?
To be brutal, no, it doesn't sound too likely. It sounds more likely they haven't a clue what the problem is (Dirt in the engine? Bad oil? )and want to stiff you £200 for what is likely to be a can of Wynn's engine flush.

Let me know where they are then I can avoid them if my car ever breaks down if I drive up to see my friend in Sundsvall...
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Ben82 »

@Rattiva_Mike, it's Br Petterssons in Köping.

Have fetched the car, to be honest there was no "hard sell" from them, the guy was ok with English, but struggled a little bit (far better than my Swedish that's for sure).

In short: The warning is from the Oil Pressure Switch (wow, I got that part right!), they checked it over with a lexia, and the oil pressure was fine. However their report is basically saying that with the ticking from the engine is to do with "sotavlagringar" (google translates to "carbon deposits") in the engine, and believe these are throwing off the sensor, so their recommendation is to do an engine flush, and put in new oil + filter, and top it up the engine with an "oilbooster". Because they reckon the sensor could be replaced and the issue would return due to the carbon deposits.

So these sound like things an average Joe like me can do anyway? (Since a lot of the mechanics round here work half days Fridays, I might as well try doing it on Saturday - if i can).
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by oneday »

nice and easy then more or less an engine flush new oil and filter and you may aswell use some fuel system cleaner aswell

nice to hear they didnt try to rob you there are still some good garages out there
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Ben82 »

Got my Lexia working, but not sure I could find the right area for checking the Oil Pressure (did notice someone posted in a thread before with the actual readings of the pressure)...

I did find a screen that I did try to take a screenshot of when I was in the car, but forgot to see if I could paste it into an paint app or so whilst in the car, which was lost... However it said something like
Oil Pressure Warning: Yes
Oil Level Reading: 15%

I wonder if this is the bit where the Oil Pressure Switch is giving off a false reading, UPDATE: Double checked the dip stick after waiting .. still around the max!

Anyone know where the switch is located? As I think it's safe to assume it's going to need replacing either way.
Thanks
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Mandrake »

Hi Ben,

Based on the VIN number you PM'ed me we now know exactly what engine/gearbox you have:

Gearbox - BVA4 (4HP20)
Engine - ES9J4S (XFX) with Bosch ME 7.4.6 injection.

The good news (or bad news depending on how you look at it) is there is in fact both an oil pressure sensor and a sump oil level sensor. Both me and the garage were wrong about it not having one - the ES9J4 in the Xantia (and I think also in very early C5's) has no oil pressure sensor or oil level sensor, at least not monitored by the ECU and readable by a Lexia, however the ES9J4S apparently does have these, so mystery solved as to where an oil pressure warning can come from...

I've attached a couple of files which are zipped PDF files, one shows the location and part number of both sensors, (15 - oil pressure switch, 17 - oil level probe) the other lists a few specs including normal oil pressure. In summary normal oil pressure is a minimum of 7 bars at 900rpm, and a minimum of 8 bars at 3000rpm. Both sensors are on the front of the engine near and above the oil filter. It looks like the pressure sensor is just an on/off switch not an analogue one, I'm not sure if the oil level sensor is on/off or analogue though.

Hope this helps. :)
Attachments
checking and adjusting values es9 engine type.zip
(43.55 KiB) Downloaded 177 times
engine oil sump filter probe.zip
(119.36 KiB) Downloaded 156 times
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by lexi »

Good work Simon :-D
That V6 is a bit different from our old Xantia ones mind you. I think they said Hundreds of changes , with uprated pistons, changed crank casting, valves. camshafts the lot .

It is on net somewhere or a brochure I had.

Good luck Ben .......I will put on The Cardigans cd and think of you 8-)
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Mandrake »

Yep, looks like there are quite a lot of differences between the ES9J4 and ES9J4S:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/C5-L/message/3963" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is also another V6 in later C5's that is different again...the ES9A. For one thing the quoted oil pressure is much lower, so there must be a few design changes there too...
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Ben82 »

Thanks very much Simon! :-D

This morning I put the suspension on full to look under the car, looks easy enough to get to without jacking the car up (a first for the V6? something that's easily reachable! :) ).

I went to a local car parts store, they didn't have the part in stock, but the guy ordered it and it should be there around midday today! so that's good, I did ask about the Engine Flush, but he didn't really seem to know of it or if they had anything (they had other things for fuel, and gearbox etc, but nothing you put in the oil), so I may find that I can't get any round here, or maybe restricted on what I can actually get (i.e. go to the local "Halfords", which may not help at all).

Worst case I guess if I can't find any is I just replace the switch, if it still occurs or comes back, I take it to my local garage with the report and see what they say on it.

Going by my basic understanding, this would be my attack plan (hopefully it's sound) for the switch:

1) Put Suspension on Full.
2) If the car's been recently run, give it time for the oil to recollect in the sump.
3) Disconnect the sensor wire
4) Unbolt the switch
5) Bolt in new switch
6) Reconnect the wire
7) Start the car
8) [-o<

Going by this morning (and driving it back yesterday) it seems like it takes about 10 minutes for the warning to reappear from cold, I'm guessing this is from the engine/oil warming up, so will probably need to take it for a drive round the block a few times to make sure it's fine.
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Northern_Mike

Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Northern_Mike »

Ben82 wrote:Thanks very much Simon! :-D

This morning I put the suspension on full to look under the car, looks easy enough to get to without jacking the car up (a first for the V6? something that's easily reachable! :) ).

I went to a local car parts store, they didn't have the part in stock, but the guy ordered it and it should be there around midday today! so that's good, I did ask about the Engine Flush, but he didn't really seem to know of it or if they had anything (they had other things for fuel, and gearbox etc, but nothing you put in the oil), so I may find that I can't get any round here, or maybe restricted on what I can actually get (i.e. go to the local "Halfords", which may not help at all).

Worst case I guess if I can't find any is I just replace the switch, if it still occurs or comes back, I take it to my local garage with the report and see what they say on it.

Going by my basic understanding, this would be my attack plan (hopefully it's sound) for the switch:

1) Put Suspension on Full.
2. PUT AXLE STANDS UNDER CAR.

........
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Mandrake »

If you're going to put the suspension on high to reach underneath you MUST use some sort of axle stands to support the front of the car as well for safety, you don't want it to come crashing down on you due to a suspension malfunction... people have been killed this way...personally I would drive the front up on ramps if you had any to give more room to work but suspension up with axle stands as a backup support will probably do given where the sensor is.

I would plan to catch a bit of oil spill as well. Also check the condition of the wiring and connector while you're there - it might be as simple as a frayed wire shorting against the engine block, or alternatively an intermittent open circuit due to corrosion of the connector, so some contact cleaner on the connector wouldn't go astray.

If you still have a low pressure warning come up after this it might be necessary to find a way to measure the oil pressure - depending on the thread and fitting of the oil pressure switch you may be able to temporarily remove it and connect an actual oil pressure gauge there with the right adapter to get a numeric reading, (you know now what it should be) assuming the Lexia can't give a numeric reading. But cross that bridge only if you get to it...
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Ben82 »

Glad I checked, thanks :)
I'm assuming using Axle stands will increase the height of the car too? Space is a bit of a premium around here, and my garage isn't all that tall (have had to take the aerial off so it doesn't keep getting "pinged" on the door when reversing into the garage). So I guess I may have to poke the car out of the garage (like i did when I jacked the car up to change from summer to winter tyres). Ramps are doable (and semi-preferable as a long term investment) if I can find an empty PAYG parking space, but storing them comes a bit of a problem.
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Mandrake »

Ben82 wrote:Glad I checked, thanks :)
I'm assuming using Axle stands will increase the height of the car too?
Only if you've got a trolley jack to jack the car up a wee bit more, slip the axle stands under then let the weight of the car down on the stands. Otherwise the axle stands will just have to be set as high as possible (nearly touching) to "catch" the car if the suspension does fall.
Ramps are doable (and semi-preferable as a long term investment) if I can find an empty PAYG parking space, but storing them comes a bit of a problem.
You're preaching to the choir, I live in a second floor apartment so my car ramps have to be hauled up two flights of stairs then up a ladder into our loft space to store them. Strangely, they seem to spend most of their time in the boot of the car instead. :-D
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Ben82 »

Thanks, so shopping list/things I need seems to be:
1) Axle Stands or ramps (will probably decide on this later, probably the decider is by measuring the clearance my car has to the garage door)
2) 21mm Spanner (if my toolkit doesn't have one - it's unopened in the car!)
3) Contact Cleaner (hopefully can get this translated and find some! Update: done!)
4) Protective Gloves (also to keep my hands warm :) )
5) Old tub to collect any oil spillage (for now will probably skip getting one of those containers that I can take to the recycling place to empty out, but will be on the list if I do find the Engine Flush stuff).
6) the part! (obviously)
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Ben82 »

Success, I think :shock:

Bought a 21mm spanner to match the new part, however after getting to it found a spanner wouldn't fit (needed to buy a 21mm and 22mm deep length socket bit - the original seemed to need a 22mm rather than 21mm).
Decided on Ramps and Chocks in the end, was able to use the ramps in the garage, so the car only stuck its nose out a bit!
Tried the electrical contact cleaner on the existing one, didn't help (reconnected it to go get the socket bits + a work lamp since I was losing daylight, and it still occurred)... also needed an electrical screwdriver to pry the clip of the connector away, but already had one of those.

Got the new one fitted, some oil leaked out, not too much, probably 75ml-ish, and was rather black. Connected it up, started the car, no warning or stop light.

Shame the switch is "on" when there's lack of pressure, so if I've really messed something up (hope not, and doubt it), then I can't tell :(

The paranoid in me suggests that I recheck the tightness of the switch next Saturday, to ensure it hasn't loosened at all.

But all in all, a success for now, so thanks to all who replied to the thread especially Mandrake :)
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Re: C5 - Oil pressure insufficient

Post by Mandrake »

Hey that's great news. =D>

The ramps and chocks are a great idea, they'll pay for themselves soon enough as lots of jobs need ramps. It might seem like a bit of money up front buying those and a few tools but each time you do a job yourself the effective cost goes down as you've already got more of what you need...

As long as the sensor is the correct one and the connector is on properly I can't see anything to worry about - the wiring and connector are obviously ok or you wouldn't have been getting the warnings in the first place.

Oil that's nearly black in a petrol engine is not good, it must have been in there a long time so I think your next job is an oil change and filter, and with a bit of luck it may fix your intermittent ticking as well...(is it still doing that ?)
Simon

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