Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

[Northern_Mike]

I do and always will put the new tyres on the front if I'm replacing two. If the rear brakes away you are simply driving too fast (assuming the rear tyres are in suitable condition to still be in use)

It's like my (sadly now deceased-natural causes!) driving instructor used to say, there are no bad bends just bad drivers.

I have to agree with you on that one. In 23 years of driving, in all sorts of places, with all sorts of tyres, in all sorts of cars, on all sorts of road surfaces and weathers and the only time I've ever had the back of the car break away (twice) was my own fault for being stupid and overdoing things. I don't drive slowly. It's not hard to feel when a tyre loses adhesion.

[Northern_Mike]

And it's much easier to control a car where the rear brakes away as you still have steering.

I'll try to remember that the next time an example of the ultimate driving machine spins in front of me on a roundabout

Driving too fast for the conditions or simply inability to control the car causes that, nothing else. Seemingly common amongst Pharma sales reps - often youngish guys, coming from hot hatches. Get a company BMW or Lexus, crash it.

This is why the Pharma company I used to work for sent us all on driving courses and skidpan days before we were let loose in company motors..

[DickieG]

I never mentioned understeer, what I said was if the front wheels lose grip, ie have none at all. Then you can't control the car as you have no steering.

Well unless I'm very mistaken the situation you describe above is called understeer as in the front tyres lose grip resulting in the car not turning in the direction intended by running wide,,,,,

[mirafioriman]

It's all relative I guess. Understeer is pretty common in small quantities some cars handle that way by design, and most drivers just naturally apply slightly more lock and most don't even register what they've just done or why. It's easier to handle than oversteer I think as it's more of a natural reaction to increase lock slightly mid turn than to let off a little.

It's a totally different situation though if you lose grip totally that's when you end up in the path of oncoming traffic, on the verge, back to front etc.

One thing our discussion raises is driver training. Many people never experience what we're discussing much if ever. (Until it's too late!)

Perhaps drivers should have to have a period of skid pan time as part of their driver training so they experience loss of grip and gain some knowledge of what to do if it happens.

[DickieG]

Perhaps drivers should have to have a period of skid pan time as part of their driver training so they experience loss of grip and gain some knowledge of what to do if it happens.

Skid pan training is in fact counter productive on any car fitted with ESP as with ESP it's important to keep steering/trying to point the car in the intended direction, if its possible for the car to make a turn ESP will sort it out for you. If you suffer oversteer and do the traditional thing of steering into the skid in a car fitted with ESP the car will more than likely go off in the opposite direction to your intended course.

ESP is very clever technology but, and its a big but in that from my experience it encourages drivers to be totally unaware that they are driving beyond the cars limit of adhesion and should you then exceed the limits of ESP the speed at which you fall off the road will be rather spectacular with unpleasant consequences.

[mirafioriman]

All my cars are too old to have ESP

My Father's Merc (now sold) had some sort of traction control which made it totally useless in snow. Everytime you tried to set off the wheels spun and it then cut the power and you stopped moving. This was made worse by the fact you couldn't switch it off

My older merc on the other hand has a mechanical LSD. It does slide about a bit on slippery roads but a bit of careful throttle management and a bit of opposite lock sees it off on it's way no problem.

So much for progress

[Northern_Mike]

Perhaps drivers should have to have a period of skid pan time as part of their driver training so they experience loss of grip and gain some knowledge of what to do if it happens.

Skid pan training is in fact counter productive on any car fitted with ESP as with ESP it's important to keep steering/trying to point the car in the intended direction, if its possible for the car to make a turn ESP will sort it out for you. If you suffer oversteer and do the traditional thing of steering into the skid in a car fitted with ESP the car will more than likely go off in the opposite direction to your intended course.

I have discovered this. My mum's little Kia Picanto has ESP, and it does really odd things when the ESP starts to work. I've found it tries to go in the direction you turn the steering wheel, which might not be quite what you want to do. There's a couple of large roundabouts up there that are quiet that you can throw a car around to see what happens. It cuts the "power" if the front starts to lose grip which brings it nicely back into line, but if you flick the back end out and use some opposite lock, it gets all confused. Of course, for normal driving it's a great idea.

[Northern_Mike]

All my cars are too old to have ESP

My Father's Merc (now sold) had some sort of traction control which made it totally useless in snow. Everytime you tried to set off the wheels spun and it then cut the power and you stopped moving. This was made worse by the fact you couldn't switch it off

My older merc on the other hand has a mechanical LSD. It does slide about a bit on slippery roads but a bit of careful throttle management and a bit of opposite lock sees it off on it's way no problem.

So much for progress

I had a C-Class Estate back in 2001 for a few weeks when it snowed. (Pool car, I was using a 'bike for work, car fleet manager felt sorry for me and gave me it for a while as it was stood idle). It also had traction control, and it was utterly useless in the snow for the reasons you state. The second Capri 2.8 I owned had an LSD, it was actually rather good fun. The first one I had didn't, and was a complete handful in the wet if you wanted to drive at any sort of pace. Lots of front end grip, but the rear was hilariously awful.

[DickieG]

When ESP is fitted it's unusual for there not to be a switch to turn it off, one of the reasons that for instance BMW's are seen floundering in the snow is that the drivers haven't RTFHB if they did they'd know that simply pressing the DSC (ESP) button restricts its operation so that it still operates but comes into action later whereas you need to press and hold the button for several seconds to turn it off completely whereupon the car becomes very mobile and dare to say it rather good fun in the snow

[Bannedbiker]

RTFHB????

[Xaccers]

RTFHB????

Read The Flippin' Hand Book

[Bannedbiker]

Thanks.
Spent a couple of minutes trying to work that out before admitting defeat.

[Monkeyfeet]

I know that this is noyhing to do with tyres, sorry sorry sorry in advance but:
My ears picked up at the mention of the YZF750 - They're originally set up as too nose high/tail low for best handling. Have you tried pushing the forks up through the yokes (I run about 10mm) and a fat washer under the rear spring mount to raise the rear a touch. It should handle well and engine's a goodun too
(it'll rev to the red in 6th )

Oh and one more emoticon thingy 'cos it's new years eve

[Bannedbiker]

To be honest I've only done about 250 miles since I got the YZF750 in the summer. Although it's low mileage (only 12'000 miles from new) it did have a problem with the idle speed due to 19 year old inlet stubs. As it stands it needs a couple of new O-rings on a metal coolant pipe I disturbed fitting a couple of inlet stub gaskets.

It's a great bike, physically smaller than I expected and pulls well for a 750. I did notice a reluctance to lean when about half way over but put it down to the tyres (Continentals) and was thinking of making a spacer on my lathe to raise the rear end.

I'm undecided as to whether I'll be keeping it next year as I've got the Xantia, Eunos Mx5 and the YZF and don't think I can justify 3 motor vehicles. That and not sure about the white, blue and pink colour scheme. I mean pink, what were they thinking of. I know shell suits were in fashion in 1993 but they could've used red instead couldn't they?

[Monkeyfeet]

ah, one of the pink ones. Mine's black / white / red and looks good. Respray / panels from breakers?