Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

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dazzydecks
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Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by dazzydecks »

Hi,

I hope someone can help. I have a 2009 Citroen C5 2.0 HDi 138HP VTR+ - it has just over 40,000 miles on the clock.

Recently, and intermittently, it has started to vibrate quite badly. When the problem occurs, the following symptoms are present:
  • It happens when the car is stationary as well as moving.
  • Idle speed has dropped to approx 750 as opposed its usual 1000rpm.
  • The engine feels to be running 'rough' - the closest I can describe it as is when not all cylinders are firing
  • The problem occurs througout the rev range - when pulling away, the engine noise is 'rough', the drive is rough. When at a standstill, increasing revs doesn't change the vibration feel
  • It is particularly noticable to the driver when pulling away from a standstill as the vibration is felt heavily through the clutch pedal (at the biting point it is worst) - to such an extent it sent my leg numb
  • However, there doesn't appear to be a noticable drop in power
This has happened 3 times in the last 2 months, however, the most recent two times have been over the course of the last 4 days.

As a result of the most recent occurence, I took it to my Citroen dealership yesterday where it was serviced (was due) but mainly for them to look at this problem. However, as I took it to the dealership, the problem had stopped and it could not be replicated by the machanics. It hasn't yet reoccured since yesterday's service either.

Can anyone offer any thoughts on what the problem may be? I'm planning on using it to visit family at Xmas and am wondering whether I should use the wife's car instead! :)

Thanks for your help...

Darren
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by Xantidote »

You'll get more expert advice when those knowledgeable in C5 happen along.

I've no personal experience of them, but my first thought is maybe the dual-mass flywheel. These have any sort of life, just think of a number - I've heard of a Jag one lasting only 22k. Is there any noise at all, as I understand a bit of knock may be heard? When you get the vibration when engaging clutch, does it vary as you let clutch up, in terms of what you feel, or a change in noise?

Otherwise, maybe an engine mounting, or a stabiliser/strut - sorry, but no knowledge of the C5

Good luck
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by SaabC5 »

Idle speed should be about 750-800rpm not 1000rpm. My initial thoughts are either the dual mass flywheel or an intermittent injector problem. we had a Golf at work that did exactly the same, it would start shaking at idle for no reason and that was an injector issue.
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by dazzydecks »

Hi,

Thanks for the responses.

Xantidote - yes, the vibration is most noticable through the clutch at biting point then fades as the clutch is let all the way out - that said, there is still the vibration through the car; it's just most obvious when feeding the clutch in (though still very noticbable at other times).

I can't say that I'd noticed a knocking noise as such, but the normal engine noise sounds like there's a 'gap' in it, exactly as you might expect if a spark plug wasn't firing for example. So when driving, and working up through the revs/gears, the normal noise is replaced by this 'rough' noise, but there is no set of circumstances that I can effect that make it stop.

SaabC5 - Maybe I'm notcing the 750 idle speed and attributing it to this problem, when in fact it has always been that way - apologies for the potential red herring!

If and when it happens again, if I don't hear anything further on this board, I will suggest the dual mass flywheel and a potential injector problem to the dealer. Also, the engine mounting (although I would hope, but didn't check, that the dealer would have checked this yesterday when investigating the problem - maybe I'm being optimistic!) and a the stabiliser/strut possibility.

Thanks again - will post back if I find out anything new.

Darren
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by myglaren »

To get a better idea of what this may be, have a look here and see if there is a Lexia owner near you that would read any stored fault codes.

I agree though that it sounds like a failing injector. You can get them tested and refurbished at a good diesel specialist but it isn't cheap (cheaper than new injectors though)
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by qprdude »

Unusual for an injector to fail at 40,000?
Wouldn't discount the DMF yet.
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by bencowell »

I ran a session on the Lexia, there are no error codes of particular interest.

There are messages about coherence with right hand side steering column and with the door switches, but that doesn't explain the roughness. There was also error codes P495 and FF1B/0F1B but they were 20,000 miles ago.

I noted that at idle the engine wasn't as smooth as it should be (it sounded more like a 1.9 VW diesel), and checked the injector flow correction rates. At idle, injector 1 was showing a correction factor of -80 (minus) while the other cylinders were in the region of 20 to 40 (positive).

Under load all injectors showed a correction of -2 and the engine sounded and felt normal. On overrun, (when no diesel was injected), things were smooth.

I don't understand why the injection correction would be so different at idle.

I am discounting the possibility of a flywheel problem and thought it might be an injector.

I don't have the apparatus, but suggested a test of the fuel injector return flow rates would be beneficial and suggested a local independent who would no doubt be able to look at it for him.

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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by Old-Guy »

As it's an intermittent problem, a disintegrating DMF seems a less likely cause than one cylinder 'missing'. A misfire (not firing on only 1 in several cycles on that cylinder), rather than one dead cylinder makes an engine feel rough without any noticable loss of power. I think I'd start by looking for a loose/corroded/dirty electrical connection to one of the injectors - no 1 being the most likely suspect.

If the car is usually run on cheap diesel, it could be a sticky injector. Try a tank of Shell/BP/Esso. The penny or two per litre that you 'save' by buying cheap diesel is an illusion, the improvement in mpg from a quality diesel more than offsets the higher price - never mind the saving on having to de-gunge the fuel system!
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by myglaren »

bencowell wrote:
I am discounting the possibility of a flywheel problem and thought it might be an injector.

I don't have the apparatus, but suggested a test of the fuel injector return flow rates would be beneficial and suggested a local independent who would no doubt be able to look at it for him.

Ben
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by dazzydecks »

Hi,

Latest update:

Last Friday, the problem became dramatically worse - still pulling ok, but at tickover, or coming to a halt (so approaching low revs) a very loud banging noise appeared that was felt violently through the clutch pedal. It sounded like a B&Q trolley being pushed over cobbles - very loud, inside and outside the car. Xantidote, is this what you were expecting when you mentioned a knocking noise?

It is now with Citroen - they have told me that it is infact the flywheel that has seized.

They are fixing it as we speak - replacements required: flywheel and clutch.

THanks everyone for the help - Ben, in particular, thanks for taking the time to put it on the Lexia. I will still investigate the seemingly odd cylinder corrections.

FYI, it has generally been run on supermarket diesel, but since the suggestion in this trail, I filled it with Shell V Power, which, whilst didn't solve the problem for now obv reasons, did increase economy - so a lesson learned there, it will run on quality fuels from now on.

Thanks again,



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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by Xantidote »

dazzydecks wrote:a very loud banging noise appeared that was felt violently through the clutch pedal. It sounded like a B&Q trolley being pushed over cobbles - very loud, inside and outside the car
I guess this was the DMF very much on it's last legs/in it's final throws, the lump of rubber that's within the DMF having totally broken up, allowing metal to metal contact. Alas, on modern cars, where engines are designed to drive vehicles at low revs, DMFs are fitted to protect the transmission system from vibration and shock, but are not capable of the high mileage one can get out of a "solid" (ie. conventional) clutch. I suppose another thought is that with modern engines developing a lot more power, there's a lot more power transmitted through the transmission system on letting the clutch out at traffic lights - a DMF maybe avoids fitting a much beefier and heavier solid clutch (but at subsequent cost to the owner).

Maybe we'll have to accept DMF replacement as a consumable item, rather like discs need to be replaced on a more frequent basis nowadays - in the old days, discs were only changed infrequently, whereas nowadays they seem to need changing much more frequently, although they are generally not too expensive.

When you get the car the car back, I expect it'll drive like a magic new car :) Hope not too expensive, and let's hope the injectors are not playing up!

Have to admit that after my posting the possibility of the problem being the DMF, the subsequent suggestions that an injector was at fault seemed to me to be very plausible possibility. Hopefully, problem solved.
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by dazzydecks »

Just thought I'd drop a note to give you the final results of this:

As per my previous post, it was the dual-mass flywheel that had seized, and therefore this and the clutch needed replacing.

It turned out that to access the DMF, it took a full day's effort for the dealer; this combined with the cost of the parts resulted in a total bill of £1650. I managed to get the dealer to drop his labour costs bringing my total cost to £1550. This was still painful!

However, I wrote to Citroen central, explaining the sequence of events and that the car, whilst out of warranty, had been serviced in line with Citroen's own recommendations, and that I wouldn't expect a component such as this to fail on a car of this age...etc...

The response was an offer to pay me back for the cost of the parts - I tried to go further and get labour costs back, but was rejected. Anyway, I got a cheque from Citroen for £655 which softened the blow.

Also, I now have a contact at Citroen - I recently (subsequently) had a windscreen wiper failure (the passenger side wiper 'fell' off the side of the car so it was hanging down by the passenger wing mirror). I made an appt with the dealer/garage, but firstly rang my contact at Citroen, who got in touch with the dealer - net result: no charge for the repair.

Just thought I'd share the tale.

Thanks all for your help along the way...
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by qprdude »

The DMF is indeed there to help cope with the high torque available in today's cars. Glad you got it sorted, and thanks for the update.
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Re: Citroen C5 (2009) Engine Vibrations

Post by evoke »

dazzydecks wrote:Just thought I'd drop a note to give you the final results of this:

As per my previous post, it was the dual-mass flywheel that had seized, and therefore this and the clutch needed replacing.

It turned out that to access the DMF, it took a full day's effort for the dealer; this combined with the cost of the parts resulted in a total bill of £1650. I managed to get the dealer to drop his labour costs bringing my total cost to £1550. This was still painful!

However, I wrote to Citroen central, explaining the sequence of events and that the car, whilst out of warranty, had been serviced in line with Citroen's own recommendations, and that I wouldn't expect a component such as this to fail on a car of this age...etc...

The response was an offer to pay me back for the cost of the parts - I tried to go further and get labour costs back, but was rejected. Anyway, I got a cheque from Citroen for £655 which softened the blow.
Interesting. I've very recently had DMF and clutch replaced on my 2008 MKIII C5 by an independent workshop. The cost was £1260 as follows:

Crank seal: £15
Clutch 2-part: £212.86
Clutch slave: £102.14
Flywheel: £345.00
Gearbox oil: £15.00

Labour: £360.00

VAT: £210.00

TOTAL: £1260.00

That's a bit cheaper than your Citroen dealer's price. The mechanic told me that the clutch slave is often not replaced so it would be worth checking if your Citroen dealer did change this.
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