Xantia 1.9TD head/timing advice req'd

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egrid1
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Xantia 1.9TD head/timing advice req'd

Post by egrid1 »

I have gone into quite a lot of detail as to symptoms...Can anyone advise on likely problem...
Year 95 car approx 80,000 miles. New cambelt some 10,000 miles back.
Wife was driving car when it stalled in roadworks... phone message said it wouldn't start.
I arrived on scene some 45 mins later and turned key... it started. Thought it might have been just a fuel air lock or something minor so suggested I follow wife home to see if further problems.
2 miles down road wife reported revs kept dying as she went round corners (No she doesn't normally take them at full throttle!) I suggested we try to nurse it home and have a look there. Unfortunately a mile later the car died again. I lifted bonnet to hear nasty `metal crackling noises. It had seriously overheated and was devoid of water. When allowed to cool for 45 / 50 mins I added some water but it just poured out bottom of rad, car wouldn't start had car transported home.
Next morning, when it was completely cold tried to start it to see if it just needed new radiator (fingers crossed), but it would not start. Engine turned over well but wouldn't fire, or try to fire. Figured the head gasket may have blown between cylinders leading to lack of compression resulting in failure to start.
I have changed head gasket, used locking bolts on cam and diesel pump (but not on crankshaft as I couldn't find locating hole for rod, but figured provided I didn't turn engine over, or try to move whilst in gear, the crank wouldn't move anyway)
Old head gasket had carbon deposit signs between cylinders, so figured original diagnosis may have been right. Replaced 2 notch gasket with metal sandwich 4 notch (which I was told was standard replacement when changing to metal sandwich). New glow plugs fitted. New radiator fitted.
Had difficulty starting which I felt was due to diesel priming, engine finally started but kept dying. However as I continued to try the engine would run for longer each time. Finally engine would run but was very noisey (knocking/Rattling)large amounts of grey / black smoke from exhaust and engine idle very erratic.
Replaced injectors with reconditioned units. No real improvement.
Could the problem be due to timing now being out? If so how much should I expect to pay for the car / diesel pump to be retimed? Is it possible to retime as DIY job?
Any other thoughts as to potential problem.
NiSk
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Post by NiSk »

Sounds very much like when I managed to get the cam timing one notch out when I changed the cam belt on my XM TD12 (hell of a racket from the top of the engine and a fair amount of smoke. Could definately do with a check of the timing! You lock the crankshaft by poking a cranked metal rod (about 3-4 mm dia and 7-10 cm long) into a hole behind the starter motor (which is absolutely impossible to see and you usually give up, but it is there!)
//NiSk
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

To continue on Nisk's good advice - simply pin lock all axles to check the timing.
Back off the tensioner wheel to have the belt loose - then insert the lock pins.
PS : did you have the head regrinded - in view of the overheating ?
egrid1
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Post by egrid1 »

Thanks for your responses. I am new to this forum and impressed on speed of replies, thanks
I didn't have the head skimmed, appeared to be OK so thought I'd chance just a new gasket.
With regards to checking the timing, you say pinlock the axles then go on to say release tensioner and use locking pins. This is effectively what I did when removing belt to take off head. Turned crank to line up locking pin holes, used 1 bolt in cam gear and 2 bolts in pump (or vice versa). Didn't use the flywheel hole but avoided turning crank. Then released tensioner to remove belt, refitted in reverse. On assumption crank had not turned, pump and cam were locked, could I still have got it 1 notch out?
Any ideas as to cost of having it retimed?
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

YES - it's highly likely I'd say.
How would you by eye judge if the crank is within one notch - or not ?
Also any fiddling with the engine is likely to move a bit on the crank.
Anyway - the whole idea by this suggested procedure is to make SURE you do NOT have a timing offset - either by checking - or by a necessary re-timing of the belt.
Only THEN we have facts to decide on what else MAY be a continued problem - if you get my point [;)]
egrid1
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Post by egrid1 »

Take your point about crank possibly being 1 notch out, small movement etc. But not sure how now locking everything up and releasing cam belt could rectify this[?], except by perhaps deliberately moving crank 1 notch as trial and error.
Will investigate cost of diesel specialist to retime next week as I am a bit nervous about trial and error moving of crank in case I end up with valves hitting pistons or something awful like that.
Any idea if I have been correctly advised about head gasket suitability when switching to metal sandwich[?]
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Post by Dave Burns »

First off, if you are capable of taking the head off and refitting it you certainly don't need to pay anyone to come and do the timing for you, this is a simple task and well within your scope.
Simply strip the timing end down again and re-time it from scratch, it true that the timing hole behind the starter can be an elusive bugger to some, but if you have the right tackle, and once you have done it a few times you will be able to get the probe in just by feel, I can just about go straight to it I've done it that many times.
If you can't get an 8mm probe in then take the starter motor off, it no big upset, but you must get one in or you are wasting your time, the woodruff key on the crankshaft is directly in line with the cylinders when the timing is correct, so position the key thus, not forgetting the engine slopes rearwards meaning that the keyway will be sloping backwards by the same degree, then rock the crankshaft slowly back and forth near this point until the probe slots into the flywheel.
Pin the pump and camshaft pulleys with M8x50 bolts and refit the belt making absolutely sure that there is not one tooth of slack in the belt run facing the front of the car between the camshaft, injection pump and the crankshaft pulleys, ignore any slack in the rearward facing run of the belt at this time, it will be taken up by the tensioner, the only thing that matters is the front facing run, get this wrong and its back to square one chapter two.
When you are satisfied that the belt is correctly fitted, loosen the tensioner roller and allow it to rest on the belt, then nip it up again, turn the engine by hand in the forward direction for at least two complete belt cycles, slowly turn the engine forward and stop, do not let it turn backwards at all, loosen the tensioner to take out any slack that has developed during this phase and then finaly tighten it, rotate the engine to the timing position and ensure that ALL the timing pins will enter their respective positions, if they do all well and good, heave a big sigh, if they don't redo it untill they do.

Dave
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Well DaveBurns said what's to be said about the timing procedure.
Guess I was vague on my description on retiming the belt - this can of course ONLY be done if it's free to be moved over the teeth/notches on the sprockets.
egrid1
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Post by egrid1 »

Dave / Anders / Nisk
Thanks very much for your advice... I will try to follow it. Your confidence in my ability Dave is probably exceeded only by my desperation in taking off and refitting that head! That bolt in the middle of the bottom of the inlet manifold was a real pain[:(!]. As was the spacer on the stud which was prevented from coming off and being refitted by the turbo, I ended up cutting the spacer in half to refit it in 2 pieces[:D]!
Before I try to follow your advice though can I clarify the locking pin on the flywheel. I can understand how the timing must be right if there is only one locating hole on the flywheel, but I had assumed the locking pin just fitted into the ring gear, wherever that happened to be when it was pushed in.
I have looked carefully in the Hayynes manual at the flywheel and there does seem to be what could be a locating hole on the edge of the flywheel, just inside the ringgear. Is this what I am trying to locate the pin into[?] If not I am not sure how I can be confident the crank is in the right position, having lined up the woodruff key, then turned it back and forth to get locating peg in to ringgear.
If so I can follow that to stand a chance of finding it, the position of the woodruff key on the crankshaft will help.
I do have the appropriate tool for locking the flywheel, having spent about £18 on the draper diesel timing pin set... but as previously stated, only to use the 3 locking bolts in the kit (worked out to be the most expensive bolts you could buy!). Can you help by describing in some way where to look for the hole near the starter. When standing in front of the engine bay, looking towards the engine, is the hole in front of or behind the starter, above or below it?
Thanks once again.
Unfortunately cant work on car tomorrow (Saturday) but might be able to revisit it on Sunday.
Dave Burns
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Post by Dave Burns »

The timing probe goes into a corresponding hole in the flywheel, the fixed timing hole is in the bellhousing flange in the block, and is behind and below the starter.
If you take the starter off (three bolts plus wires) all will become clear.
Dave
p.s don't use it as a means to lock the crank for tightening the crankshaft pulley bolt.
Don't run the engine unless the crankshaft pulley is bolted in place.
egrid1
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Post by egrid1 »

Followed your advice today and it seems to have done the trick.

Thanks for your help
Engine started fine, doesn't smoke, except a very small amount of black on hard revs. Noise has reduced considerably. Still a bit noisey when compared to our VW Golf TDi but my wife always said it was more noisy than the Golf so it might just be that I forgot how noisy it was (Its been off the road for a few months waiting for me to get around to changing head gasket)
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