replacement xantia required. Advice please.

[Citroenmad]

I dont buy a Citroen for a controlled cornering Car... I buy them for Floating rides, like DS and CX..

Its just an unfortunate thing that crap-r-active is fitted to the XM and Top Xantias..

On XM's I also fit soft comfort spheres.. I dont care for body roll, its fun. I drove Renault 9's and Visa's when I first passed my test and they rolled and its brilliant! They also STICK in the corners too...

So no, chris, Agree to disagree, crap-r-active is a BIG NO NO for me...

But a Hydractive SHOULD ride better than an non-hydractive. If it doesnt then it can be made to ride better with different spheres etc.

A Citroen should float over bumps with little body movement but lots of wheel movement. Comfort spheres on a non-hydractive cause underdamping and in my experience this leads to a much worse and unsettled ride. Yes the initial hitting the bump is soft but it carries on responding to that bump after the bump has passed. Hydractives have active damping, as you know, which responds to bumps brilliantly, they ride it well but deal with the bump there, they do not have the underdamped nature as a non-hydractive on comfort spheres.

I would by a non-hydractive Xantia as a workhorse, like my C5s are, but I would not enjoy it nearly as much.

However, we all appreciate different things and I can see your favour for a non-hydractive on the symplicity terms

[Mandrake]

My electro valve DO work properly, they click in and hummm for the correct set times... They ARE working.. I just dont like it, and its not as soft as my original SX Xantia I had..

Don't be so sure that they're working reliably, the front and rear electrovalves on my V6 click and hum just fine, I also have a diagnostic LED on the dashboard that is showing the ECU is working properly but I have proven conclusively that the rear suspension intermittently sticks in hard mode which causes a harsh fidgety ride that is quite obvious. It always seems to pass a static bounce test.

I'm tempted to find a couple of Hydractive control blocks from a scrapper, fully strip down and recondition them, and fit them to see if that solves the intermittent harsh ride once and for all...

[mirafioriman]

I've only driven an early Xantia so I can' comment on the suspension however anti roll bars by their design only come into play on corners so i can't see a thicker anti roll bar making much difference to the ride.

[Mandrake]

I've only driven an early Xantia so I can' comment on the suspension however anti roll bars by their design only come into play on corners so i can't see a thicker anti roll bar making much difference to the ride.

On the contrary, thick roll bars dramatically worsen the ride on any car because they prevent the wheels moving independently over bumps. The thicker the roll bar is the less independent the "independent" suspension becomes...

Thicker roll bars is one of the main reasons modern Citroens don't generally ride as well as older Citroens from the DS/CX/GS era...the payoff is greatly reduced body roll. It's easy to forget that the DS/CX/GS roll like a boat compared to modern day cars.

Hydractive 2 working properly gives a reasonable compromise between the two, ride that can approach that of older Citroens in soft mode but still with minimal body roll and tight handling when pushing hard around corners in hard mode...

[Northern_Mike]

I've only driven an early Xantia so I can' comment on the suspension however anti roll bars by their design only come into play on corners so i can't see a thicker anti roll bar making much difference to the ride.

Hydropneumatic suspension is much more reliant on the ARBs than conventional steel springs. It helps keep the car level even in a straight line. Thicker ARBs = more jigglyness because the wheels can't move independently over bumps so easily.

[Northern_Mike]

..

Thicker roll bars is one of the main reasons modern Citroëns don't generally ride as well as older Citroëns from the DS/CX/GS era...the payoff is greatly reduced body roll. It's easy to forget that the DS/CX/GS roll like a boat compared to modern day cars.
.

I pushed my sinker Xantia to it's limits and beyond. Quite unpredictable. The HDi 110 I have now is almost perfect. It has comedy spheres on the rear end though, which aren't really to my liking.

[isisalar]

Thanks for all the response guys thats exactly the sort of information I need. I'm with citroenxm on this and agree that there's no real need for all that electronic trickery which can ruin the ride if it goes wrong. My VSX has been corner tested by two different specialists and they say it's as it should be. I still hate it.
The ride I want is exactly the vomit inducing type as described by rattiva mike. I did all my driving 'at the limit' 25 odd years ago in various BMW's. When test driving potential Citroen p/x's at the time they used to feel like driving a matress with a housebrick for a brake pedal, that's what I want.
So is it so that HDI's(I would only have a 110) are available without hydractive as LX or SX but without sunroof, or was it available as an option? Do any of the limited edition models have or certainly don't have sunroofs?
Are they rocking horse droppings?
Anyone got anything suitable?
Thanks
Paul

[mirafioriman]

I've only driven an early Xantia so I can' comment on the suspension however anti roll bars by their design only come into play on corners so i can't see a thicker anti roll bar making much difference to the ride.

Hydropneumatic suspension is much more reliant on the ARBs than conventional steel springs. It helps keep the car level even in a straight line. Thicker ARBs = more jigglyness because the wheels can't move independently over bumps so easily.

Only when just one of the wheels hits a bump

[citroenxm]

All lx and ax s2 models were sunroofs less... even the forte specials... all S and T reg cars will be 110bhp but most of those seem to be exclusivess... from V w x and y they can be either a 90 or 110bhp... but the one to go for is a Sx 110 which can easily have electric leather added as the plugs are under the seats ready to simply plug in..

sunroofs never an option on the other models only standard on exclusivess....


i had taken a T reg Sx 110 in for parts in silver with some mot still on it but with bad rear end rust.. on the rear passenger wing and ontop of the rear Cill in the door jams.. a shame really otherwise a nice car..

[Spaces]

citroenxm wrote:
I have an exclusive and while it works its still CRAP! I hate hydractive.. Theres no need for it. A citroen should float, and NOT have hard suspension or a system that needs switching to hard.. Why????

Because a Xantia is built using Peugeot parts, except for the suspension medium. Citroen ride and handling up to Peugoet's takeover in the mid-seventies was very much a direct descendant of Bertoni and Lefèbvre thinking - consistent handling at medium and high speeds with the ability to traverse France as it was before the autoroiute network spread at very high speeds.

Cars built with Peugoet-designed parts (subframes, hubs, steering, suspension layout) are more tailored to the 'instant gratification' world, as well as modern roads - smooth surfaces and good foundations (in France at least), rapid acceleration and braking, roundabouts and motorway exit corners etc. A hydractive Xantia is a great combination of hydraulics enhanced with electronics but on standard spheres will feel harsh and sharp on anything other than really good roads. With larger capacity spheres and marginally softer damping (but nothing like the damping reduction on so-called 'comfort' spheres) my old 2.1VSX is a superb riding and handling car.

[Spaces]

I dont buy a Citroen for a controlled cornering Car... I buy them for Floating rides, like DS and CX..

Its just an unfortunate thing that crap-r-active is fitted to the XM and Top Xantias..

On XM's I also fit soft comfort spheres.. I dont care for body roll, its fun. I drove Renault 9's and Visa's when I first passed my test and they rolled and its brilliant! They also STICK in the corners too...

So no, chris, Agree to disagree, crap-r-active is a BIG NO NO for me...

Roll on a chassis not designed for it can be dangerous, especially with a back axle like the PSA one... just watch out!

Equally, a car with a tendency to snap its rear end round can be equally dodgy with over-firm damping or springing - or both - on roads which have changing grip and poor surfaces, rapid camber changes, poor foundations and the English equivalent of 'nids de poules'.

[Spaces]

The ride I want is exactly the vomit inducing type as described by rattiva mike. I did all my driving 'at the limit' 25 odd years ago in various BMW's. When test driving potential Citroen p/x's at the time they used to feel like driving a matress with a housebrick for a brake pedal, that's what I want.
So is it so that HDI's(I would only have a 110) are available without hydractive as LX or SX but without sunroof, or was it available as an option? Do any of the limited edition models have or certainly don't have sunroofs?
Are they rocking horse droppings?
Anyone got anything suitable?
Thanks
Paul

Wish you were nearer, Paul - it would be interesting to see how you found my Xantia (hydractive with bigger spheres). There's no way it will ever be a CX, but it's brilliant for what it is. 195/65 tyres instead of the 205/60s help, too.

Expensive mattress ride, rubber brick for the brake pedal - which gave the effect of launcing a parachute if necessary - as well as handling sharper than anything else once onto the back roads are how good CXs feel. I have always used Turbo front spheres with the 1.65mm damping orifice instead of the more usual 1.9mm hole. Comfort is improved if you enjoy driving briskly.

Part of the secret of a great ride is a softish back end - something which is difficult to achieve when cars are as fast as they are today and tyres so relatively fat and low - they will risk snap oversteer as the tyre is unable to deform to the road as the car rolls, especially if the suspension is trailing arm (where the angle of the wheel is the same as that of the body).
Years ago I had a lovely BX 19TXD to which I fitted softer spheres at the back - it rode much better and handled just as well, but it would have been too soft on a turbo-diesel or GTi. I remember a sequence of smallish roundabouts with large (and sudden when taken fast) camber changes - with the softer rear end you could blitz these with a rapid left-right-left of the steering (when the roads were empty). The car hardly felt to change direction. With the standard spheres, max speed through these was at least 10mph less as the body heaved one way then the other.

[andmcit]

I'm not going anywhere near the whole spheres of this type and suspension design of the other type conversation.

What I will throw into the mix is another significant consideration: as it HAS to be an estate body shell you have
practically zero chance of getting one with a sunroof before you start getting picky about SX or Exclusive, 'basic'
or hydractive and 90 or 110hp HDi etc. The estates rarely had sunroofs from the very beginning and when you then
start considering a preference for a HDi 110 that'd be well into the s2 and AC only period of production. It doesn't
even follow as a given an Exclusive has a sunroof either as I have x3 which don't which disappoints me somewhat!

I'd say get the VSX you've got properly sorted as it seems the guys you've had it seen by aren't looking at it hard
enough. Pleiades would be the first place to chat as a fix with them is cheaper than changing cars!? There's a few
clever mods to improve the 'wallow' in the soft mode on the hydractive that don't ruin the car's abilities and they're
not comfort spheres too but best a Cit suspension specialist offer suggestions!

Why is your VSX estate with a sunroof on death row as it sounds just the kind of car I'd love to have: surely not because
of your dislike for the current set up? Have you driven somebody else's SORTED VSX/Exclusive here on the forum to get
a proper reference to your car? There's going to be plenty of good local cars where you are.

[Spaces]

Thicker roll bars is one of the main reasons modern Citroëns don't generally ride as well as older Citroëns from the DS/CX/GS era...the payoff is greatly reduced body roll. It's easy to forget that the DS/CX/GS roll like a boat compared to modern day cars.

Hydractive 2 working properly gives a reasonable compromise between the two, ride that can approach that of older Citroëns in soft mode but still with minimal body roll and tight handling when pushing hard around corners in hard mode...

There's a common assumption that stiff anti-roll bars somehow improve handling - they obviously reduce excess roll but reduce grip. It is an almost free way of making a cheap suspension design work much better. You don't get owt for nowt (Newton's third law of motion) so the apparent gains from a stiff anti roll bar are matched by the problems it creates, which are numerous and mentioned here. It all becomes a viscious circle - poor ride and neck-snapping roll-rock is the tip of the iceberg.

Citroën knew what they were doing all those years ago, maximising track width and lowering centres of mass instead of just bolting on thicker anti-roll bars. I know the sort of speeds my regular cars are happy at around various bends and am always surprised at how a good 2cv will easily match those speeds with little fuss. In fact, when in one I have to check the speedometer as it often doesn't feel half as fast as it is. Additionally, the wet-weather grip drops off much less with the ancient tech. My CX will sweep round all of them faster than any 'modern', wet or dry and feel more secure to boot - the laws of physics don't change down the decades, after all. Tyre technology has improved enormously while motor car tech has steadily become more cynical, apparently a necessity if the manufacturer is to make money in the 'mainstream' market.

As I've mentioned before, plenty of good cars have done without anti roll bars - the Saab 900 and Traction Avant are ones which always come to mind, both known for their excellent road holding. Manufacturers of upmarket cars are looking to use alternative technology to get rid of the crude torsion bar: McLaren suggest their road car can generate a quarter more grip without anti roll bars - the alternative they are using was quickly outlawed in F1 and WRC competition because it was so effective. Ironic that Citroën had to buy in what was technology developed directly off their own gas/hydraulic suspension to help Loeb win the WRC titles.

[imperial21]

This could be what you looking for ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2000-X-CITROE ... 460901cbc8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I dont know the seller just saw it i thought it might be right, I would be interested if i had the money !!

My thoughts on the suspension is i think hydractive is great, I loved it in my exclusive !!!