New alloy wheels causing problems on my Xantia mkII

[citroDane]

Hi guys,

After 13 years of faithful service on the road I decided my Xantia 2.0 HDI had deserved a "face lift", so I went out and bought her some nice OZ Racing rims:
https://www.reifen-felgen-fahrwerke-spo ... -88-T.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't buy new tires, as I was a bit short of cash and my friend had a set of used Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 195/50 R15 82V tires (20km on them) lying round, which I got for free. I would have liked to go with the a factory size profile (65) but, heck, they are very good tires and I thought I can live the slightly "petit"-looking wheels, while I'm saving money for new 65s.

So I got the tires on, balanced and mounted only to find myself hit with two rather bad problems:

1) at 50 km/h I start hearing some not so loud but persistent noise, kind of like when your brake pads are totally worn down and it sounds like you're scratching up your discs. Then between 60 and 100 km/h it's harder to hear, either because the intensity of whatever the defect is remains the same, while the increasing wind noise and the sound of the tires rubbing against the asphalt makes it hard to hear the scratching. The offset of the wheels is 18, so they don't rub. I've also given the wheels a good visual, and there is plenty of clearance everywhere, not rubbing.

2) When braking at speeds over 50 km/h the car pulls significantly to the left. The car is a daily driver, so I know it wasn't doing this before I changed the wheels.

Got no clue what the root causes of either of these problems are. Only the problems are obviously somehow connected with the new wheels, although I can't see why or how! I appreciate any leads and ideas you guys might have.

Thanks in advance,
Gabriel

[Citroenmad]

If your wheels have wheel weights stuck on the inside these can contact the caliper and make a noise. Happens with XMs quite a bit in my experience but Ive not had it on a Xantia. It depends how much clearance there is between the inside of the wheel and the caliper.

Pulling, well this can only be due to a tyre is either soft or has a defect. Are the tyres a full set of matching tyres? If they are directional have they been fitted to the car correctly. If not directional have they been fitted to the wheels correctly?

Ive had a good few tyres which have developed defects, usually they go out of round and cause anything from a vibration, pulling to one side (had this recently with a Goodyear actually), odd sensations through the steering and so on.

Try swapping your wheels from front to back or side to side if they are non directional tyres.

Are the wheel bolts the correct ones? If they are too long the bolt might be contacting with something behing the hub. They also need to seat correctly in the alloy.

[citroDane]

If your wheels have wheel weights stuck on the inside these can contact the caliper and make a noise. Happens with XMs quite a bit in my experience but Ive not had it on a Xantia. It depends how much clearance there is between the inside of the wheel and the caliper.

Pulling, well this can only be due to a tyre is either soft or has a defect. Are the tyres a full set of matching tyres? If they are directional have they been fitted to the car correctly. If not directional have they been fitted to the wheels correctly?

Ive had a good few tyres which have developed defects, usually they go out of round and cause anything from a vibration, pulling to one side (had this recently with a Goodyear actually), odd sensations through the steering and so on.

Try swapping your wheels from front to back or side to side if they are non directional tyres.

Are the wheel bolts the correct ones? If they are too long the bolt might be contacting with something behing the hub. They also need to seat correctly in the alloy.

Thanks Chris,

Yes, they have those sticker type wheel weights on the inside. I'm not sure how those clear the calipers. I'm away for the weekend without the car. I'll get back tomorrow evening and check this and write back. Interesting indeed whether that's gonna be the cause, as it presents another problem. What am I gonna do to avoid those traditional lead blocks hammered on to the wheel damaging it?

Btw, the suspension geometry doesn't change -even slightly- with speed changing the clearance between steering/suspension elements and the wheels, does it?

The tyres are matching but the front ones and the rear ones are bought in different countries and may be made at different plants. That in itself can be a factor, I suppose. They are directional so I will need to check whether they have been fitted correctly.

I'll try swapping the rear and the front ones, so see if the extent of the pull changes. If it's a defective tire changing it from rear to front will intensify the pull and vice versa, right?

The wheel bolts are the original rusty factory ones, that should be ok as far as the holes in the hub as concerned, I suppose. But there might be a problem as to whether they seat correctly in the alloy. I did a visual when the wheels were being mounted and they looked ok. Although admittedly I have no experience with that, so...! How can I verify that other than eye-balling the nuts and the holes on the alloy?

Thanks a lot,
Gabriel

[Citroenmad]

I always ask for the sitck on weights as the hammer on ones ruin the wheels. I have had a problem with the XM in the past with the weight rubbing the caliper. They tyre fitted changed the location of the weights, not sure quite how, add more to add more perhaps. I think if they are on the outer edge they are ok.

Unless you ave some play in the suspension, the geometry will should not change.

Yes, swapping the wheels back to front should change the pulling to one side if it is a tyre defect causing that. I did this with the cars I have had a problem with and found the pulling almost went away.

Xantias with standard alloy wheels have special bolts which have a flat head and a washer. Though these are for standard wheels and might well not fit into the holes in after market wheels. So long as the head of the bolt seats with the sheel correctly, it should be fine. As alloy wheels are thicker than steels the bolts are usually longer but as long as you have sufficient thread in the hub it will be fine.

[Xaccers]

With the Xantia wheels, the bolts for the steels are different, with a taper at the top of the threaded shaft.
They are too long for the Citoen alloys.
There are at least 2 types for the Citroen alloys, one of which is too long when used with the wrong type. Both have flat faces at the top of the threaded shaft.
I would imagine you need suitable bolts to match your alloys and hub depth.

[citroDane]

I always ask for the sitck on weights as the hammer on ones ruin the wheels. I have had a problem with the XM in the past with the weight rubbing the caliper. They tyre fitted changed the location of the weights, not sure quite how, add more to add more perhaps. I think if they are on the outer edge they are ok.

Unless you ave some play in the suspension, the geometry will should not change.

Yes, swapping the wheels back to front should change the pulling to one side if it is a tyre defect causing that. I did this with the cars I have had a problem with and found the pulling almost went away.

Xantias with standard alloy wheels have special bolts which have a flat head and a washer. Though these are for standard wheels and might well not fit into the holes in after market wheels. So long as the head of the bolt seats with the sheel correctly, it should be fine. As alloy wheels are thicker than steels the bolts are usually longer but as long as you have sufficient thread in the hub it will be fine.

That's it, I'll check the clearance and worst case, will ask them to move to the outer edge. A thought, from the sound if it, if it's that it probably isn't much we're talking about. How about filing/sanding the surface of the caliper where they rub?

For the pull, I'll then definitely swap the wheels to test. I'll need to take another look at the bolts and the alloy when I take the wheels off. Maybe the bolts need to have a flat-bottomed head for these OZs!?

[citroDane]

With the Xantia wheels, the bolts for the steels are different, with a taper at the top of the threaded shaft.
They are too long for the Citoen alloys.
There are at least 2 types for the Citroen alloys, one of which is too long when used with the wrong type. Both have flat faces at the top of the threaded shaft.
I would imagine you need suitable bolts to match your alloys and hub depth.

Thanks for the comment. As I wrote to Chris, I'll check the bolts and the alloy provides a flat seating as the bolt heads' bottoms taper. Even though, I myself was thinking that situation would not present a problem as long as the bolts are not too long and the bolt head diameter isn't too little and they don't seem to be. The reason I'm thinking that is the wheels otherwise rev without shimmy at least up to around 100 km/h and they shouldn't be able to if the wheel bolt seatings and the bolt head-bottoms (and the bolt length vs hub hole present "incompatibility" issues), which I reckon should result in loose bolts. Right? As per the discussion with Chris, I believe the bolts are probably on the short side of things with these alloys, but there should be enough bolt shaft thread in the hubs, as the wheels seem to sit in solidly without any play.

[Timmo]

Definately check the bolts, pop down a wheel centre if you have one close as they will have plenty of types of bolts and many diffwerent lengths, its very important to have the right/correct type of bolts for the wheels, most alloys will use a Flat base for the bolts and the std steely wheels will use an angled edge to help them seat properly, you may not notice the play in them but there could be a Tiny amount which can cause issues, vibrating wheel bolts/nuts loose etc.

the pulling could be as simple as tyre pressures, but also worth a check that both tyres are the same in all details as those tyres had a lot of 'fakes' goign around at one stage, was a way to check them with the details ont he side walls as to where they were made, the chineese ones were the ones to keep an eye for, many resellers didnt know, ( a bit of googling will help here)

chuck a picture of the car and alloys up too!!! always good to see what alloys look like on the Xants! got a set of Pug Cyclones ion a mates garage of his old gti-6 to go on the estate!

[citroDane]

Definately check the bolts, pop down a wheel centre if you have one close as they will have plenty of types of bolts and many diffwerent lengths, its very important to have the right/correct type of bolts for the wheels, most alloys will use a Flat base for the bolts and the std steely wheels will use an angled edge to help them seat properly, you may not notice the play in them but there could be a Tiny amount which can cause issues, vibrating wheel bolts/nuts loose etc.

the pulling could be as simple as tyre pressures, but also worth a check that both tyres are the same in all details as those tyres had a lot of 'fakes' goign around at one stage, was a way to check them with the details ont he side walls as to where they were made, the chineese ones were the ones to keep an eye for, many resellers didnt know, ( a bit of googling will help here)

chuck a picture of the car and alloys up too!!! always good to see what alloys look like on the Xants! got a set of Pug Cyclones ion a mates garage of his old gti-6 to go on the estate!

I will definitely check the bolts. Everyone here has mentioned them. Yeah, I will need to consult a wheel centre and see the types of bolts they recommend for OZ. For length, I think I can pretty much measure the Xantia stock bolts' thread length and go with that -once I've got the question on right type of head sorted out.
I understand now it's quite important to have the correct type of bolts and wrong ones could create problems not visually detectable. I just find it rather annoying that after a decent amount of googling I can't find any info on the right type of bolt head for these OZ rims!

Tire pressure is ok, but either the front or rear ones might just be fakes, all right. I'll try to google a bit with the details on the side walls later...thanks for that.

No worries, I will post some pictures as soon as I can.

[citroDane]

Hi guys,

Well, you know what they say: The Postman Always Rings Twice! First a dodgy deal on my "new" Xantia wheels and then an ordeal with a crashed computer and having to buy a new one as the old one, well, was too old to consider repairing.

Anyway a quick update; the rims have a 60 degree tapered bolt seating (first on a visual and then confirmed with a phone call to the factory). My original Xantia bolts have 60 deg taper and 26 mm thread shafts. And given that all the "alloy" bolts I've found on ebay and elsewhere are also chrome-coated steels ones with 60 deg taper and 26-28 mm thread shafts, my factory bolts currently on the wheels should essentially fit the alloys perfectly. But then I saw some debate on uk-answers where some people were saying "yes, bolts for alloy wheels are also made of steel but have a collar/ring around the nut where they touch the wheel in order to spread the load out across the hole in the wheel to protect the wheel, otherwise the bolts might 'pull through' the alloys" etc.
I thought that made some sense, but then again all the alloy bolts I'm seeing and even a set some ebay (also real life) wheel centre recommends, have no collar or ring around the head where they touch the wheel and basically look like chromed versions of my factory Xantia bolts. To make the point clearer, this is the one the guy recommended (item no.: 140738557809):




And this is the factory bolt (picture is from a Bilstein replacement bolt but that's factory design):



So I really don't know if I should throw money after these bolts just because they are marketed as alloy wheel bolts. Any thoughts?

Anyway given the bolts should be ok, I am attributing all the noise, pulling etc to the tires. They are used after all and a 50 profile and I was gonna change them eventually. Seems that has to happen much sooner than I thought and with the money I spent on the surprise pc purchase this week, well things are getting interesting around the house!!

[xantia_v6]

The information you need is the wheel bolt specification for your new rims. They could have flat, taper or radius seats, and the length will vary depending on the machining.

[citroDane]

The information you need is the wheel bolt specification for your new rims. They could have flat, taper or radius seats, and the length will vary depending on the machining.

Thanks.
As I mentioned I called OZ Racing and asked them about the seating on the rims and they confirmed they have a 60 degree tapered bolt seating. Concerning the thread length, I put the factory steel bolt in both the the factory steel wheels and the OZ alloys as atest and more or less the same thread length was protruding from the wheels' hub contact surface (on the inside of the wheels) -ca 20-21 mm I think it was. Ok, I think the alloy had 1-2 mm less sticking out.

[trev0006]

Factory is the way to go.

Hi guys,

Well, you know what they say: The Postman Always Rings Twice! First a dodgy deal on my "new" Xantia wheels and then an ordeal with a crashed computer and having to buy a new one as the old one, well, was too old to consider repairing.

Anyway a quick update; the rims have a 60 degree tapered bolt seating (first on a visual and then confirmed with a phone call to the factory). My original Xantia bolts have 60 deg taper and 26 mm thread shafts. And given that all the "alloy" bolts I've found on ebay and elsewhere are also chrome-coated steels ones with 60 deg taper and 26-28 mm thread shafts, my factory bolts currently on the wheels should essentially fit the alloys perfectly. But then I saw some debate on uk-answers where some people were saying "yes, bolts for alloy wheels are also made of steel but have a collar/ring around the nut where they touch the wheel in order to spread the load out across the hole in the wheel to protect the wheel, otherwise the bolts might 'pull through' the alloys" etc.
I thought that made some sense, but then again all the alloy bolts I'm seeing and even a set some ebay (also real life) wheel centre recommends, have no collar or ring around the head where they touch the wheel and basically look like chromed versions of my factory Xantia bolts. To make the point clearer, this is the one the guy recommended (item no.: 140738557809):




And this is the factory bolt (picture is from a Bilstein replacement bolt but that's factory design):



So I really don't know if I should throw money after these bolts just because they are marketed as alloy wheel bolts. Any thoughts?

Anyway given the bolts should be ok, I am attributing all the noise, pulling etc to the tires. They are new goodyear tires after all and a 50 profile and I was gonna change them eventually. Seems that has to happen much sooner than I thought and with the money I spent on the surprise pc purchase this audi week, well things are getting interesting around the house!!