Rusty sills on ZX

[the_weaver]

I haven't found any ZX sills yet, but I found a place that sells new sills, that they make themselves, for Citroen GS and GSA:-

http://www.chevronics.co.uk/Citroen_GS_ ... s_List.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some good pictures here. Is this what a ZX replacement sill would look like? Just a flat length of steel, with some fluting here and there. Could these be adapted for the ZX? Is the ZX sill flat?

Are the sills bent around with a hammer before welding, or are they welded on flat?

How thick is the metal on a ZX sill?

Paul

[handyman]

Hi Paul, GS & GSA sills wont fit your car. Getting somebody to make a set would be prohibitively expensive.

I'll have a word with a few people I know over the Channel to see whether there are any ZX body panels around, but the ZX was a very UNDERRATED car so did not have the cache of other models and in consequence, this has made parts harder to come by as many were dumped or scrapped when the model was deemed obsolete. Funnily, in France it is still in use and the older models abound everywhere.

I'll send you a couple of photos of my car and the sills, if they are recoverable, as I had perfect sills on the car and only minor rust to an inner wing. It would be possible to cut off the inner and outer together by just cutting through the floor. PM me an email.

Finally, is it really worth spend quite a lot of time and money on this car, given the high mileage and its condition. With a bit of hunting around, I'm sure you could find a similar model in much better condition. They do exist and it would probably be cheaper than restoring your car, as, from the photos, that is what you are going to have to do. I bet whoever does your welding must be very happy as it don't come cheap.

Handyman

[the_weaver]

Handyman

I've sent you my email address via PM.

There don't seem to be any ZX sills around, but there are quite a lot of BX sills. Cheap too. I've seen some BX ones as cheap as £20 to £30. Would a BX sill fit on a ZX?

I don't want to restore my car. I'm basically just trying to keep it going for a few more years. Just enough repairs to pass the MOT really. That's what I was thinking of. The car is an excellent runner. I'd never get another car that ran as well, cheap. The engine is excellent, even though it's done 220K. It starts first time, every time, even in freezing weather. It accelerates really well. Totally reliable. Goes like a bomb. Nice and quite. Great to drive. Always does the same mpg, as it did when new. I get 42 mpg. My brother used to get 48 mpg in it. I've done most of the 220K. I've had it since 1997. My brother bought it from new. Only two owners, so I know exactly what's happened to it. It's still on the original head gasket. For the first fourteen years of it's life, all that went wrong (apart from service items) was one glow plug.

It's still very reliable now, but suffering from bad paintwork. The clear coat is turning white, and coming off. So it looks terrible. However, it suits me fine, because I've got used to it. Soon, it will be completely matt black, and then it will look much better.

The only other problem is rust, but because the car is so reliable, I'm willing to keep having it welded each time the MOT comes around. Just to get another year out of it. The floor looks ok from underneath. The bodywork is not rusty apart from the sills. I've already had a lot of the work done, e.g. inner wings.

There's a garage I know, who are not that expensive for welding. I'm sure they'd put patches on the sills for a reasonable price. They don't normally bother with painting. Just a coat of underseal, which probably takes them fifteen minutes. That sort of finish matches the rest of the car. It's possible to keep prices down just by patching, and undersealing instead of painting.

I also know some good garages, who would do a superb job on the sills. However, as you say, it would be more expensive.

It's a shame that the sill panels are not available, but perhaps putting patches on top of the existing sill would be a reasonable repair. Is there any reason why a patch repair on top would be bad? Would it fail the MOT? I've already had most of the inner wings done. That wasn't too expensive. How much would the sills cost compared to the inner wings.

The sills look pretty flat to me. Couldn't you just get a length of flat sheet metal, bend it around, and weld it to the floor and to the area near the bottoms of the doors.

Alternatively, start welding patches at both ends, and extend the patching towards the centre pillar, as the rust progresses. That way, the cost could be spread over a few years.

Paul

[the_weaver]

Does a BX sill that only costs £20 to £30 seem too cheap? Would it be thinner steel maybe, or do they have to conform to a British Standard?


Paul

[Chlorate]

To give my two-penneth worth here...

The rust on my ZX was a little worse than that, but not by much, and I ended up having to put the old girl out of her (and my) misery.

If you have a welder to hand, then maybe patching it up for now will be worthwhile, but if you have to pay someone else to do it for you...well that can get too expensive too quickly.

You can get a decent car for much less than a grand these days (my exclusive only set me back £500) I was told that my ZX would have cost at least £600 for the welding.

[the_weaver]

Chlorate

Thanks for that useful info. £600 is a lot of money. What was that £600 quote actually for though? Was it for patching it up on the outside, or was it for cutting the old sills out, and fitting two new sills? Did the £600 include the cost of the new replacement sills?

I think I'm going to be looking at a patchup job at a cheapish garage, with maybe a year (or two) more use from the car. I'll see what they quote for that, and then decide what to do. I was going to get a quote from an expensive garage, but I might not bother now.

I think that patching it up might be safer anyway, because cutting the old sill out, and fitting a new one has to be done right. Patching it up seems easier to get right. You're just adding extra metal, onto a sill that's already got some strength left. There's less room for mistakes.

I haven't got a welder myself, and I'm not planning to learn how to weld. I do know of a chap who restores old cars. He works on his own, in a garage in a forest. Maybe he'd be cheaper, but I don't know if he's any good or not.

How much would the steel cost, to patch it up? Any idea?

Would using thicker metal be a good idea?

I think the steel in the outer sill is probably about 1mm thick. Is it possible to weld steel that thin, to add a patch on top of the outer sill, assuming that the underlying metal is sound? Or does it have to go to thicker metal on the floor?

Paul

[Chlorate]

Steel itself is remarkably cheap, a square metre of 1mm mild steel sheet would cost about £20 depending on where you go, metals4u wants £16.67 ex. VAT and P&P), the main issue is the time of the person with the welder.

The £600 i was quoted was a rough estimate, the garage in question wouldn't even take the work on even though they were a company that advertised welding as a service they offered. I assume it would be a grind and patch job instead of fit a new sill job, since when asked the chap didn't know if replacement sills were available for any car, let alone the ZX in particular.

Welding thin material is a bit of a PITA at the best of times, but not impossible for a skilled welder.

[Spaces]

If the rest of the sills aren't rusting (try and borrow a fibre-optic camera or cut a couple of small - 2 or 3cm sq - sections out of each sill and see what the reverse side is like) then have the rotten areas cut away and new steel let in. A motor vehicle restorer should be the best person, whether he rebuilds Jags, Alfas or MGs. They know their rust!

Since the car has been so faithful (and ZXs are great cars) I completely understand your wish to preserve it as long as possible. Make sure that there isn't a whole load of work waiting in the wings, though - rear axle could be one big replacement.

Important thing to avoid is patching - this is quick, cheap and easy in the short run but intended to see a car through the MoT, no more. Rust is like cancer or a bad back - have some magic modern cover-up treatment instead of eradicating the cause and properly sorting the damage and it'll be back with a vengeance, given time.

Remember to have any welding properly treated, especially on the inside. I've always used etching primer at the bare minimum before blowing over with underbody treatment. Then pump the area full of a wax preservative. No reason why a structural repair correctly carried out shouldn't last five to ten years (or a lot longer, if the car isn't used when the roads are salted), depending on use. And you might only pay twice what a cheap repair which lasts a year or two and which causes more corrosion.

Whereabouts are you?

[Spaces]

Just to get another year out of it.
If that's all you want and expect from the rest of the car, then fair enough.

There's a garage I know, who are not that expensive for welding. I'm sure they'd put patches on the sills for a reasonable price. They don't normally bother with painting. Just a coat of underseal, which probably takes them fifteen minutes. That sort of finish matches the rest of the car. It's possible to keep prices down just by patching, and undersealing instead of painting.
If the the rest of the car is great, then why wreck its structure?

I also know some good garages, who would do a superb job on the sills. However, as you say, it would be more expensive.
Cheap is usually the expensive route to life, putting cheap right can cost many times more than doing it well in the first place, so often lead to complete scrappage.

I've already had most of the inner wings done. That wasn't too expensive. How much would the sills cost compared to the inner wings.
Have you any pics of this work so we can see how good it is?

The sills look pretty flat to me. Couldn't you just get a length of flat sheet metal, bend it around, and weld it to the floor and to the area near the bottoms of the doors.
Not advisable. Unless it were a temporary fix, which would then involve a lot of cutting out later if things wanted to be done properly. Nonsensical.

Alternatively, start welding patches at both ends, and extend the patching towards the centre pillar, as the rust progresses. That way, the cost could be spread over a few years.
Sills are integral to the strength, safety, roadholding and the rest of the car. Patches overlapping patches on a ZX's sills would probably fail at any respectabe MoT station.

Have you considered keeping the ZX on for a long while yet? It could make sense and they will be rare throughout Europe in five or ten years. It may never earn the cachet of a CX or Traction Avant, but as a daily driver it makes so much more sense than a more modern car in the same sector. If you are able, buy a lower mileage ZX which is terminally rotten, to be used for spares. Or one which isn't rotten and use it instead. If a BX or Golf can be regarded as collectable, then why not a ZX? It is a very French car, is nicer to drive than a Xantia, in my opinion, and is a lot less common.

See all the problems posted on here with Xantias and C5s? Over-complexity and carefully-engineered parts which don't last kills most of them, it's ironic that due to galvanisation corrosion isn't often a big problem. All newer cars are crazily complicated, I can't imagine much made beyond 2005 ever being collectable - a good ZX could well last another two or three decades without too much fuss if you think it through. I knew a lady who had driven Citroens for years and couldn't abide the hydraulic Peugeot-Citroën cars, yet loved her ZX. "It isn't trying to be something it isn't", she would say. "And it reminds me of my Traction, with its simplicity and honesty".

[handyman]

Paul, even though you know this car well, given the photos of the rust, its time to send it for recycling. It is only a tin box on wheels and can be replaced with a similar vehicle for a lot less than the welding repairs will cost you. Any vehicle repairer taking this on would probably want an open cheque, as once you start the prep work, all sorts of other corrosion will start to appear. Trust me, there is a lot of rot in your car that you have not even found yet and I know from experience.

Mechanically, these cars can offer incredible mileages, but due to design, the bodywork will deteriorate and you cannot stop that. Welding up this car year after year will only make a welder very happy and richer. I'm first in the queue, Malc.

If you are determined to drive and own a ZX, have a look around as you can find low mileage ZX models that will cost you considerable less than putting this straight, whether you decide to patch repair it or to have it properly restored. Looking on the internet, you should be able to find a good one for between £350-800. If you think the welding will cost less than that, I'd question the quality of the work undertaken. Any good welder wont do a shoddy job and risk his reputation.

As for Spaces rant about Xantias and ZXs, the two models are completely different and offer alternative forms of transport! Like comparing chalk with cheese. As for some old biddy rattling on about how a ZX can surpass a Xantia in ride quality........

I'm just wondering if this whole posting is a bit of a wind up and maybe Admin ought to lock it. What do you think, Steve?

H

[citronut]

if i were doing a job like this and aftermarket repair panels wernt readily available, i would make it up out of sheet steel as i went along,
or if the shape was lengthy and more complex i have a friendly classic car restorer who'z golallthe gear, that would curve/bend bits for me

although you say you just want it patched to keep her going for a bit longer,

so it dont really have to be absolutely correct as in a restoration job would be

[the_weaver]

I'll have to have a good look at the rust, and see how for it's spread on the inner sill. At the front, the outer sill went rusty from the inside, with no warning. The paintwork on the outer sill looked fine. I think the rust must have come from the bottom of the wheel arch.

On the rear part of the sill, the source of the rust was the jacking point. The jack has a slot in it, to go over the jacking point, which scrapes the paint off. The rust starts from that bare metal on the jacking point. If the source is the jacking point, then I should be able to see how far the rust has travelled from the jacking point. Provided it hasn't gone too far, I might be able to clean it up, and/or get it welded. I have got a very small camera which might fit in there. It's only black and white though, so it won't show up the rust as good as colour one. I'll try an inspection mirror as well.

Some of the rust on the inner sill, has only appeared because the outer sill has been opened up to the elements. If you look at the picture of the front offside, you will see rust on the inner sill, with a white non-rusty area above it. The rust is starting to take hold from the point where the hole is in the outer sill. There are parts of the inner sill which are rust free, with some coating still intact. Does anybody know what that coating is? Is it proper paint that will withstand the weather? Is it primer? If it's primer, then it will absorb moisture from the air. Is there actually a coating there at all?

Can anybody tell me what the construction of the sill looks like. There's the outer sill, which is about 1mm thick. Then I suppose another inner sill of 1mm. Then there is the vertical edge of the double skinned floor. How thick is that edge?

Is there any reason why a repair couldn't be thicker than the original metal? Cars are designed to be lightweight, but there's no reason for a repair to be thin metal. Cars used to be much more solid in construction. A piece of thick, square-section tube, instead of the thin sill, would be much stronger than the original construction. I wouldn't do it, but it's how cars used to be made.

As I said before, I'm not really into restoration. I just like having reliable, simple, cheap cars, that are capable of high mileages. I don't like computers or electronics. It's the 1.9D engine that I like the most about the ZX. However, it is a great car overall. I'm in South Wales, where welding is hopefully very cheap. The rear beam looks ok to me. I can see a gap between the top of the tyre and the wheelarch, so that's a pass in my book.

As sills are not available, it looks like patching up is the best option. I suppose the outer sill has to be closed up, but it would be very handy to keep it open, so I can have access to clean up the rust every few months. I think I'll give the inside a good clean up myself, using Loctite Rust Remedy, paint etc. If the inner sill needs welding, I'll get that done. Then get the outer sills closed up. If the rust travels, then I'm sure there will be another hole opening up in the outer sill, which will start the whole process again.


Paul

[citronut]

i would say the reason a lot of that rust had started is from the car being jacked up with trolley jacks at the wrong points,

if you look at your rusty jacking point the sill is bent upwards each side of it, this indicates the car has been jacked up in the wrong manner as its shoved the sill upwards,

the same im sure goes for the outriggers, i have seen it so many times ( if i had a pound for every time and all that )

the other place rust comes from is inside box sections and between areas were there is two or more skins against each other,

the only other cause is if the outter bodywork paint coating becomes damaged it will rust,

but 99% of the time it starts inside box sections and works its way out trough the metal,

it seems to me you are clutching at straws here
the only way to attack this sort of job is to get the grinder out, as this is the only way to see how far the tin worm has spread

[the_weaver]

Malcolm

You're right about the outriggers. I did see a chap in a tyre place jacking the car up there, a long time ago.

I never jack the car up, or support it, on the sills. The only time I've ever used the jacking points, is when changing flat tyres at the roadside. I used the Citroen jack on those occasions.

By "get the grinder out", do you mean wire brushing, or actually cutting holes in the outer sill, to have a look inside?

Paul

[citronut]

on this type of work i firstly use a blow torch ( take care not to catch the car alight although ) to clean the stone guard/underseal/paint away,
then clean/cut away rusty metal with a grinder cutting disc if required,

then the dog can see the hair

any area were there are several layers/skins of metal welded over each other ( like seems/sill lips ) i clean/cut back till i have one clean solid edge to weld to,

otherwise the welding will just F*A*R*T and POP if trying to weld to several layer with rust in between