Glow plug snapped - who pays?

[Sl4yer]

Hi.

The C3 has been smoking a bit on startup recently, so I asked the garage to take a look at the glowplugs when it was in for service and MOT. They rang tonight and said that one of the glowplugs had snapped when they were attempting removal. Don't know as yet how much it will cost to remove the head and send it away to get the plugs out.

The question (and it's a genuine one - I can see both sides) is who should be responsible for this cost - me or the garage? Opinions please.

Thanks,

James

[CitroJim]

The garage James. They did it, they should have some kind of insurance to cover mishaps like this. Did you ask them specifically to check the plugs or did they do it off their own bat as part of their diagnosis?

If you did not specifically mention glowplugs then it's their liability not yours as I see it...

Anyway on a modern diesel the glowplugs are only used when penguins start to shiver so I question their knowledge/ability to successfully diagnose the fault if they don't understand that it's very unlikely to be glowplugs causing this fault.

[mirafioriman]

I go with the garage too. Glowplugs and injectors on modern diesels are notorious now for seizing in and being hard to remove without damage. Unless they rang you and explained that they were seized in and asked if you wanted them to try to get them out at your own risk then it's down to them as I see it.

[Lighty]

Probably biased, but I would say you, absolutely no doubt whatsoever, its your car and the garage did not seize it in the head. You put the miles on it, and you asked them to repair it.
It cant be helped if it broke.

[neil123]

"so I asked the garage to take a look at the glowplugs"

If they used appropriate skill and equipment, and t still broke - they often do - its yours.

If you can PROVE they didn't, it'd be theirs - but could you?

Its just like every seized/snapped bolt in the universe - unless you can prove they didn't take reasobnable care and skill, its down tou you.

Realistically, if you thought they were like that, you wouldn't have taken it to them, hmm?

Sorry!

[Spaces]

There are ways of removing glow plugs without removing the head. Mercedes forums are full of this sort of info if I remember right - their reduced general quality in the 90s is leading to all sorts of problems, snapped-off glow plugs included. I'll try and find some links.

https://sites.google.com/site/alanmcrey ... cedesom606 for starters!

[mirafioriman]

Garages are paid to do a job not break things. If there is significant risk that a glow plug will break they should tell you this and ask if you're willing to take the risk. If they just wade in and break something it's poor practice and they should bear the cost. There are specialists who can remove these when they are seized in without breakage, yes that costs but not as much as getting them out when they have broken.

It's like if a job takes two hours, they can't take the job on and then charge you 4 hours because there were seized bolts and the job took longer. Some you win, some you lose. Most garages win more than they lose because they are good at what they do.

The ones that aren't good don't tend to stay in business for long.

My father's Mercedes S320 CDI had the same issue it went to our local independent Merc specialist. They said they would try them and if they were seized in would leave them. Fortunately the two damaged ones came out and ok and weren't seized.

[mirafioriman]

You're right about Mercs having problems but it's not just Mercs, try getting some Citroen injectors out! It's not just about quality either it's engine design. Glow plugs and injectors are now often much longer due to modern cylinder head designs and therefore have more chance of seizing in place. Also as they now often need replaced less this again adds to the problem.

[Spaces]

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/OM606BrokenGlowPlug
http://rle-service.com/content/tools/tools.htm

An old-school mechanic who works/has worked on old cars may be best in this situation - both before and after a plug breaks. Similarly a motor vehicle restorer is much less likely to snap things off and will be used to the gentle approach - finding someone will real skill who will work on modern vehicles is another matter!

[Sl4yer]

Thanks for all the replies. The differences of opinion are interesting.

Yes, I asked them to look at the glowplugs - I'm sure that's what the root cause is.

Jim, although these modern diesels don't require the glowplugs to fire, they're still required to run well after a cold start, even at decent ambient temperatures. There is an informative Beru PDF available in the interweb with the latest developments (can't link to it right now).

The same PDF also states that glowplugs should be removed with a torque spanner, to ensure that they are not sheared. The guy I spoke to tonight seemed to suggest that the plug had been sheared previously, since it moved before it snapped. Don't know what he used to try to remove it though.

As for the garage, I've been taking my cars there for the last 15 years, as has my father on my recommendation. Apart from a recent (major) mishap with Father's C4GP, the work they've done has always been excellent.

James

[Sl4yer]

There are ways of removing glow plugs without removing the head. Mercedes forums are full of this sort of info if I remember right - their reduced general quality in the 90s is leading to all sorts of problems, snapped-off glow plugs included. I'll try and find some links.

https://sites.google.com/site/alanmcrey ... cedesom606 for starters!

Thanks for that. I believe access is probably the issue! HDi plugs are buried at the back of a transverse engine...

James

[Lighty]

Doesn't help now, but these are supposed to be excellent . Sykes also do a kit to remove the plug once snapped off.
http://www.sykes-pickavant.com/Products ... fault.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[addo]

...who pays?

Not crime, as they say that doesn't pay.

I'm with Lighty on this, also if the garage had taken a "kid gloves" approach and carefully established a safe work/access area around the glowplugs you'd be still in for a good few quid to cover all the removal and refitting of bits.