The 20 year rule problem

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Northern_Mike

Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Northern_Mike »

Gibbo2286 wrote:I had to chuckle at the "General unreliability of new cars" bit, cars are more reliable now than they've ever been,
Yep, I'll happily agree to that. The issue is that when something breaks, it's rarely a £15 part from GSF like it is with our old tubs. This gives the *impression* that the old tubs are cheaper to run, thus more reliable, when it's more than often not the case. My mum tends to buy a car new, run it for 7 or 8 years, then buy a new one. Ok, she bought Japanese cars up until 2 years ago when she bought a Kia. They never break down though. The Mondeo we had for 7 years and 144k miles never missed a beat apart from when i left the lights on and went on holiday, which ruined the battery.

Now, be totally honest, and count up the number of failures of *something* on your old tub that you've had in the last couple of years... I've ran old French cars since oh, about 1998 on and off, and rarely a month or two goes by without something going wrong, however minor. Obviously, I haven't paid £15k for these cars, so it's acceptable, but if I had, it really wouldn't be.
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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I obviously see things differently to you guys, I never fitted a Turbo on a diesel until about 3 years ago, now must be upto 50, comms units, at least 1 a week.
DMF and clutch issues , dpf,s blocked, electronic valves, every car I get in has electronic issues, and thet usually cost 100,s to fit.
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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Lighty wrote:I obviously see things differently to you guys, I never fitted a Turbo on a diesel until about 3 years ago, now must be upto 50, comms units, at least 1 a week.
DMF and clutch issues , dpf,s blocked, electronic valves, every car I get in has electronic issues, and thet usually cost 100,s to fit.

Could this just possibly be due to the massive increase in cars on the road that have these parts? Or am I missing something...
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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It seems that cars are less likely to come to a halt with wires fallen off and other silly problems today (but if we ignore the tat much of the British industry put in salesrooms in the seventies and eighties and the catastrophic reliability which resulted from poor design and assembly) then breakdowns today - although less frequent - usually cost much more than they ever have, since it will be a more major failure and the parts are often both time-consuming to fit and expensive. The chances of mending something by the roadside on a modern car are virtually nil.

Peter, I'm not sure they are much more economical - but we all drive a little faster and expect to accelerate much quicker - thanks to turbos. Some figures from 1970s and 80s cars: My (huge) old Audi estate with the 5 cylinder diesel will average an easy 50mpg on a run if you go no faster than 80-85 and easily beat 43-44 overall, a friend's Xantia 1.9td and my own 2.1 manage similar figures. My CX petrol turbo with the 230 hp Maikonics conversion would average 23-27mpg - a car as fast today would do well to beat that figure.

I have a rule of thumb for fuel consumption figures in the real world - mid twenties for a performance machine, 40-45 for a sensible general purpose 'family'-sized car and 55ish for something economical. Few well-designed cars seem to deviate much, in the real world. After all, once designs are reasonably competent, there is little to avoid the fact that to accelerate a given mass to a given speed and overcome frictional losses at that speed, a given amount of energy is required.

Lightweight and less acceleration is the only real answer to economy, given reasonably efficient and well-chosen engines. I still marvel at how fast a Dyane is, in the real world - with just 30hp available - not just lightweight of course, but clever roadholding which means you rarely have to slow down much.
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Fifty years ago Peter the average DIYer would be taking his cylinder head off, decoking and regrinding the valves every 10k miles or so, fitting a new diff crownwheel and pinion at 45k miles, ovehauling the gearbox to stop it falling out of gear at about the same time.

A car that completed 100k before being scrapped was a pretty rare item

I recall when Rootes first brought out the mono-constructed Hillman Minx, at under two years old we were spending hours underneath with the oxy acetylene rebuilding what went for a chassis (front end of the rear springs complete with hanger brackets came up through the floor)
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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Rattiva_Mike wrote: Now, be totally honest, and count up the number of failures of *something* on your old tub that you've had in the last couple of years... I've ran old French cars since oh, about 1998 on and off, and rarely a month or two goes by without something going wrong, however minor. Obviously, I haven't paid £15k for these cars, so it's acceptable, but if I had, it really wouldn't be.
Over the last year, an Audi A6 2.5TDi has cost a set of rear brake pads, a fuel filter and a power steering pipe. It also needs a £20 section of exhaust fitting - a twenty minute job. The cambelt ought to be done, too. It has covered about 25k in the year, with almost 300k on the mileometer. The Xantia 2.1 needed brake pads and front discs, exhaust and glow plugs over a similar mileage the year before. It could also do with a belt change. Both cars are running superbly, no rot or other nasties. I think any four year old car's owner would be more than pleased with such 100% reliability and not too many 'consumable' parts.
Last edited by Spaces on 27 Aug 2012, 15:46, edited 1 time in total.
PeterN: "Honest John's forum put the last nail in the coffin of owning a 2000- car. Many were still servicable, but CR, DMFs and needing fault codes read because your horn doesn't work - no thanks. All my life I have generally understood cars - until now."
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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Gibbo2286 wrote:Fifty years ago Peter the average DIYer would be taking his cylinder head off, decoking and regrinding the valves every 10k miles or so, fitting a new diff crownwheel and pinion at 45k miles, ovehauling the gearbox to stop it falling out of gear at about the same time.

A car that completed 100k before being scrapped was a pretty rare item

I recall when Rootes first brought out the mono-constructed Hillman Minx, at under two years old we were spending hours underneath with the oxy acetylene rebuilding what went for a chassis (front end of the rear springs complete with hanger brackets came up through the floor)
And now the only car industry we have is foreign-owned and run. Even the indigenous bike industry turns out Jap clones. No Citroen would have ever needed such maintenance, even remembering the teething problems with the Ds' hydraulics.
PeterN: "Honest John's forum put the last nail in the coffin of owning a 2000- car. Many were still servicable, but CR, DMFs and needing fault codes read because your horn doesn't work - no thanks. All my life I have generally understood cars - until now."
Northern_Mike

Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Northern_Mike »

Spaces wrote:
Rattiva_Mike wrote: Now, be totally honest, and count up the number of failures of *something* on your old tub that you've had in the last couple of years... I've ran old French cars since oh, about 1998 on and off, and rarely a month or two goes by without something going wrong, however minor. Obviously, I haven't paid £15k for these cars, so it's acceptable, but if I had, it really wouldn't be.
Over the last year, an Audi A6 2.5TDi has cost a set of rear brake pads, a fuel filter and a power steering pipe. It also needs a £20 section of exhaust fitting - a twenty minute job. The cambelt ought to be done, too. It has covered about 25k in the year, with almost 300k on the mileometer. The Xantia 2.1 needed break pads and front discs, exhaust and glow plugs over a similar mileage the year before. It could also do with a belt change. Both cars are running superbly, no rot or other nasties. I think any four year old car's owner would be more than pleased with such 100% reliability and not too many 'consumable' parts.
So, they've both needed consumables like any other car would? That's fair. How many parts have had to be replaced due to failure other than service items in that mileage though?

As well as that, they both need belt changes. My Independent trusted specialist quoted me £350 for the Berlingo's belt and waterpump to be done. I suspect the Audi to be more expensive than that.

So, unless you do the work yourself, not cheaper than a modern car at all is it?
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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Xantia's are great workhorses and they don't half take it in their stride. Our old W Reg Xantia HDi Estate has been passed from pillar to post with what must be four friends using it for long periods of time and one friend liked it so much he bought it. For such a low price these Xantia's are great value for money, and just get on with the job. =D>

I must say that at the moment I'm really impressed with the C4 Loeb (2007) with it just needed the usual service items. Touch wood it stays that way... [-o<
Spaces wrote:My CX petrol turbo with the 230 hp Maikonics conversion would average 23-27mpg - a car as fast today would do well to beat that figure.
Interesting Spaces - 230BHP must have been the Turbo 1 engine. Not still got it now have you? Rare beasts nowadays the Maikonics cars...
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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@RattivaMike - Well, they haven't gone wrong at all - I cannot stand cars which do. The power steering pipe cost under £20 and took half an hour to fit - it was precautionary - not actually leaking. I have a rule which says that if you buy a high mileage car which has been correctly maintained, then it will need very little in the way of new parts since those which will go, have been replaced. It will also generally have led a much easier life than a low mileage one.

My Audi man charges £30 an hour and takes about 3 hours to do the Audi's belt, another hour to change the pump's belt. Parts are just over a hundred for Gates at my motor factor. Admittedly, the Xantia's belt looks a bit of a nightmare to do - but no worse than many contemporary cars' belts or chains.

I don't see why you're suggesting having to change a belt is anything to do old age or high mileage - it's one of those regular jobs to do on modern engines. They all need their drives to the cam replacing every so often. Chances are an older car will be simpler to work on - my old Audi 80 took me less than an hour to replace the belt. What's more, they were reputed to never break! Equally, I think back longingly to my CXs when contemplating tackling the Xantia - access to the belts was great, if there were any at all. My first diesel CX had gears - perfect!

Cambelts and modern chains (which look like they belong on a child's toy) are one of the reasons I love the old Mercedes diesels. They are of industrial strength and duplex - as long as you change the oil correctly, they'll do half a million miles without having to worry. You just have to remember to advance the pump timing at about a quarter of a million.
PeterN: "Honest John's forum put the last nail in the coffin of owning a 2000- car. Many were still servicable, but CR, DMFs and needing fault codes read because your horn doesn't work - no thanks. All my life I have generally understood cars - until now."
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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@Citroening - yes, still have the 230 horse CX, and yes, a Turbo 1 engine but with retro-fitted huge intercooler. I've never had such an awesome machine, it made an SM look a lot of money for what it was.

I've driven Ferraris, Lotuses and many other extremely fast machines but this was in a different league - not because it was faster, it travelled at the same speed on the same roads, but because of the exquisite roadholding (and subsequent comfort), the diravi steering, parachute-strong brakes and quiet, smooth engine you would arrive at your destination wondering just how you'd got there so fast and with so little fuss. Tardis-like, I've never experienced anything similar since. Anything else which is as quick has jarring suspension and steering which is imprecise and woolly.

The more modern cars become impossibly complex and awkward to work on, the simpler and purer this car looks. It never went wrong, just the nasty Peugeot dash and interior which I despised, compared with what had come before it was 'orrid!

Having to work on a CX is now a pleasure, unless it is welding(!) The sheer beauty of design and componentry such as the front hubs and calipers and the correct use of the hydraulics (unlike what has followed) makes it all very worthwhile. Jobs which I once considered truly nasty such as a rhd steering rack now look only averagely fiddly.
PeterN: "Honest John's forum put the last nail in the coffin of owning a 2000- car. Many were still servicable, but CR, DMFs and needing fault codes read because your horn doesn't work - no thanks. All my life I have generally understood cars - until now."
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Northern_Mike »

Spaces wrote:@RattivaMike - Well, they haven't gone wrong at all - I cannot stand cars which do. The power steering pipe cost under £20 and took half an hour to fit - it was precautionary - not actually leaking. I have a rule which says that if you buy a high mileage car which has been correctly maintained, then it will need very little in the way of new parts since those which will go, have been replaced.
I'm sorry, but you've just undone your entire argument there. As I understand it, we were talking about old technology and old cars being better than modern ones when they were new, which they clearly are not. Of course *any* car, new or old, if it's had all it's faulty bits replaced should be reliable for some time to come....

Rattiva should be fit for another 200k. However, at around 200k, it had just about everything consumable replaced - work that would have made the car completely uneconomical to continue to use had it not been done by Jim himself - the work, if it would have been done at a garage, would have cost well over £1500... the car is perhaps worth 1/3 of that.
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

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Spaces wrote:@Citroening - yes, still have the 230 horse CX, and yes, a Turbo 1 engine but with retro-fitted huge intercooler. I've never had such an awesome machine, it made an SM look a lot of money for what it was.
Excellent Spaces, and that raises the known Maikonics-Converted-CX count to 11 - starting to get common now. :roll: :wink: Oh they are immense fun aren't they! We've got the 250BHP Kit for the GTi Turbo 2 and it sounds like yours is probably more than the 230BHP as Simon says in the original literature that is sans intercooler. There is a Series 1 GTi Turbo running Maikonics that has had an intercooler fitted between the front grille and radiator. Of course the GTi Turbos are great cars in standards form however a different beast aren't they in the Maik form...250BHP and 320FT/LB are impressive figures.

Edit - Scrap that - I thought I knew about it before - http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 05#p289705" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Back to 10 known then! :lol: :roll:
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Spaces wrote:
And now the only car industry we have is foreign-owned and run. Even the indigenous bike industry turns out Jap clones. No Citroen would have ever needed such maintenance, even remembering the teething problems with the Ds' hydraulics.
And they got there by taking our stuff and refining it after the basic hard design and invention work had been done. The first BMW was a modified Austin 7, the first post war Datsun/Nissan engines were copies of the Austin A series and B series engines tuned and lightened by use of a fair bit of aluminium.
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Northern_Mike »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
Spaces wrote:
And now the only car industry we have is foreign-owned and run. Even the indigenous bike industry turns out Jap clones. No Citroen would have ever needed such maintenance, even remembering the teething problems with the Ds' hydraulics.
And they got there by taking our stuff and refining it after the basic hard design and invention work had been done. The first BMW was a modified Austin 7, the first post war Datsun/Nissan engines were copies of the Austin A series and B series engines tuned and lightened by use of a fair bit of aluminium.
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