Hi All
I am starting a new topic although this one does carry on partially from my other topic (XM coolant renewal).
Thanks to help from AndersDK, we identified I had a later type HP pump (6 + 2) on my XM. It was suggested to try and get the HP pump tested for capacity (as I do not have the flow divider valve) to see if this was the cause of heavy steering (in fact no steering assistance) at engine idle when turning steering wheel about 3/4 turn off centre either way.
I have checked with someone at Citroen and they say (this particular garage) does not carry the testing equipment for HP pumps anymore. I tried a few more independents and they do not carry the equipment either.
I am also getting conflicting details as to where the problem may lie. To give more information I have also noticed that when I put the Citroen to it's lowest setting (for some Citroen aerobics [:D]) and leave it there for about 20 seconds, I get the messages "Hydraulic pressure" followed by "Warning Brake pressure loss" when I try to raise the suspension (if I do it straight after letting it down to the lowest it mostly comes back up OK but pretty slowly). It will eventually re-pressurise and come up very slowly.
There currently is hydrorincage (spelling?) coursing through the system (last 2000 miles) and it has made a slight difference to steering (lack of assistance later in lock).
I have had opinions that it is either :
(1) The flow divider valve - I thought we had excluded that because of the pump type?
(2) The HP pump - I was told by most (4 garages I spoke to) that the HP pump would not be an issue even for my 150K car.
(3) The steering problem may be the valve on the steering. I was told by one citroen mechanic that the valve would only be at fault if it got heavy putting on lock one way.
(4) The regulator is at fault (accumulator was changed 2K ago).
I have checked piping and it seems OK. I can turn the big feed rubber pipe at the pump end even though it has a clip on. Is this OK? At the reservoir end the rubber is firmly fixed although the 90 degree elbow allows movement. Is that normal?
Thanks again for your help. I think majority answer will help me decide what to try first.
Andrew
XM suspension/steering issues
Moderator: RichardW
-
first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20
- Location:
- My Cars:
Hi Andrew -
- bit astonished your problem not solved yet [|)]
First - let's make one thing crystal clear :
With the 2 port HP pump - the Flow Divider is NON-existing on your car [;)]
Second - with the 2 port pump - you have SEPARATE pressure supply to steering - NOT affected by any regulator problem - as this is connected to the OPPOSITE port than the steering. The regulator port has a build-in non return valve - to further teach the system to part & behave.
Third - the servosteering needs HUGE amounts of pressurised LHM - which means the servosteering port on the pump - occupies by far the largest functional PART of the pump.
With the latest observations of yours - testing the behaviour during Citaerobics - it seems to me the pump clearly should be suspected.
Both pipe ports circuits are at fault - or clearly suffers from under-pressure indications - even as they are separated. Only thing in common - is the pump itself.
Ahhh... - well -
Just had some dinner - and then :
You did in fact express some worryness on the pump feed hose & attachment. No doubt - this hose must be in good condition - no hardened/cracked rubber - and tight fit on studs both ends. Replace hoseclamps to be sure. The "genuine" ones are cheap production line one-off's - to be cutted.
Air getting into the pump's suction side is disastrous.
Also carefully inspect the studs for any signs of cracks. The LHM reservoir filter/manifold unit is known to crack on un-duly service actions.
If you doubt the hose - use a clean PVC hosing suitable dia - for shortterm repair - look in your garden [;)]
Just remember to prime the pump on hose removal.
One last thing that springs to mind :
The HP pump is VERY good to develop high pressure - but is a very diminuent suction pump. Any small blockage on the suction side - and it behaves like a weak vacuumcleaner blanked off by a piece of paper.
- bit astonished your problem not solved yet [|)]
First - let's make one thing crystal clear :
With the 2 port HP pump - the Flow Divider is NON-existing on your car [;)]
Second - with the 2 port pump - you have SEPARATE pressure supply to steering - NOT affected by any regulator problem - as this is connected to the OPPOSITE port than the steering. The regulator port has a build-in non return valve - to further teach the system to part & behave.
Third - the servosteering needs HUGE amounts of pressurised LHM - which means the servosteering port on the pump - occupies by far the largest functional PART of the pump.
With the latest observations of yours - testing the behaviour during Citaerobics - it seems to me the pump clearly should be suspected.
Both pipe ports circuits are at fault - or clearly suffers from under-pressure indications - even as they are separated. Only thing in common - is the pump itself.
Ahhh... - well -
Just had some dinner - and then :
You did in fact express some worryness on the pump feed hose & attachment. No doubt - this hose must be in good condition - no hardened/cracked rubber - and tight fit on studs both ends. Replace hoseclamps to be sure. The "genuine" ones are cheap production line one-off's - to be cutted.
Air getting into the pump's suction side is disastrous.
Also carefully inspect the studs for any signs of cracks. The LHM reservoir filter/manifold unit is known to crack on un-duly service actions.
If you doubt the hose - use a clean PVC hosing suitable dia - for shortterm repair - look in your garden [;)]
Just remember to prime the pump on hose removal.
One last thing that springs to mind :
The HP pump is VERY good to develop high pressure - but is a very diminuent suction pump. Any small blockage on the suction side - and it behaves like a weak vacuumcleaner blanked off by a piece of paper.
-
first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20
- Location:
- My Cars:
Hi AndersDK
Thanks again. With so many answers from the "experts" out there I began to wonder [;)]. The HP pump would be the cheapest - recon or from a scrappy.
As a first try I will remove those crappy Citroen crimped clips from the feed hose, check the pipe and put some proper jubilee clips on.
Any other opinions are most welcome.
Best Regards
Andrew
Thanks again. With so many answers from the "experts" out there I began to wonder [;)]. The HP pump would be the cheapest - recon or from a scrappy.
As a first try I will remove those crappy Citroen crimped clips from the feed hose, check the pipe and put some proper jubilee clips on.
Any other opinions are most welcome.
Best Regards
Andrew
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
There is a pressure relief valve in the steering section of the pump, if the wheel is held hard on lock the valve can be heard doing its stuff as it makes a hissing noise due to lhm being forced through it, when the system is working correctly that is.
If yours doesn't make this sound on full lock then there is either not enough pressure to cause the valve to open, or the valves spring has broken and it is already open or opening at much too low a pressure preventing pressure from building, or the steering ram has a major internal leak which is not all that uncommon.
Has this situation come about gradualy or all at once.
Dave
If yours doesn't make this sound on full lock then there is either not enough pressure to cause the valve to open, or the valves spring has broken and it is already open or opening at much too low a pressure preventing pressure from building, or the steering ram has a major internal leak which is not all that uncommon.
Has this situation come about gradualy or all at once.
Dave
-
first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20
- Location:
- My Cars:
Hi Dave
Thanks for your answer.
I certainly hear the hissing (as all good Citroens should [:D]) as I turn the wheel. Not sure about at full lock. I will try. I have only had the car a few months. Since I've been using it I've noticed the issues. I see the ram was changed back in 1997 at 70K along with a "cylr p/steer" (part no 401135) by Citroen dealer.
I do get noise when I put on lock and get no assistance, which I thought might be due to a belt slipping although the belt is very tight and is not cracked. It is not a screeching noise more of a noise of a pump belt under tension working hard, more lower.
As suggested, I put new jubilee clips on the feed form the reservoir to the pump (four of them) and checked the feed rubber pipe carefully. No signs of cracking. Rubber looked in good nick. No discernible difference, although steering seems meatier/heavier (maybe placebo effect).
Thanks
Andrew
Thanks for your answer.
I certainly hear the hissing (as all good Citroens should [:D]) as I turn the wheel. Not sure about at full lock. I will try. I have only had the car a few months. Since I've been using it I've noticed the issues. I see the ram was changed back in 1997 at 70K along with a "cylr p/steer" (part no 401135) by Citroen dealer.
I do get noise when I put on lock and get no assistance, which I thought might be due to a belt slipping although the belt is very tight and is not cracked. It is not a screeching noise more of a noise of a pump belt under tension working hard, more lower.
As suggested, I put new jubilee clips on the feed form the reservoir to the pump (four of them) and checked the feed rubber pipe carefully. No signs of cracking. Rubber looked in good nick. No discernible difference, although steering seems meatier/heavier (maybe placebo effect).
Thanks
Andrew
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
Hi Andrew, the heavy hissing sound I refer to is much more vigourous than the light hissing sound thats common during normal use, it will only happen if the steering wheel is held on full lock, this puts the power steering pump on its highest load which is far more than when it is actualy moving the road wheels, then the valve has to open and vent the pressure.
So if you don't get this sound when at full lock it means there is no significant pressure present, though it doesn't necessarily mean the pump is not working properly, if the ram is totally goosed the oil will just go in through one port and out of the other.
Dave
So if you don't get this sound when at full lock it means there is no significant pressure present, though it doesn't necessarily mean the pump is not working properly, if the ram is totally goosed the oil will just go in through one port and out of the other.
Dave
-
first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20
- Location:
- My Cars:
Hi Dave
I do get a hissing sound when full lock is applied - I would say it is slightly more than normal but not noticeably so. Should it be a lot louder - more like steam being released?
One thing has just happened today. I has noticed some fluid beneath the car - not too much - put it down to loss of coolant - pipe at thermostat has crusting and some light fresh deposits. Tonight when reversing out of a friend's drive he noticed a green fluid on the drive. I new it was LHM. Jacked suspension up to get a better look and the rubber fluid drain (I assume) from the strut (left side) has sheared. There was a sligt dripping from the pipe but not too much. Will this cause these effects or have been part of the issue? I had noticed dampness (not wet - more like water from a day or two before) under both turrets in the wheelarches. Could there be a leak in the struts that could cause these issues? It is definitely not water as when the weather has been dry lately it was still there.
Thanks
Andrew
I do get a hissing sound when full lock is applied - I would say it is slightly more than normal but not noticeably so. Should it be a lot louder - more like steam being released?
One thing has just happened today. I has noticed some fluid beneath the car - not too much - put it down to loss of coolant - pipe at thermostat has crusting and some light fresh deposits. Tonight when reversing out of a friend's drive he noticed a green fluid on the drive. I new it was LHM. Jacked suspension up to get a better look and the rubber fluid drain (I assume) from the strut (left side) has sheared. There was a sligt dripping from the pipe but not too much. Will this cause these effects or have been part of the issue? I had noticed dampness (not wet - more like water from a day or two before) under both turrets in the wheelarches. Could there be a leak in the struts that could cause these issues? It is definitely not water as when the weather has been dry lately it was still there.
Thanks
Andrew
Andrew -
These small leak-off hoses from the front struts ONLY carries the fully normal leak off from the struts to the reservoir.
The leak off is in fact seepage from the hydraulic cylinder - to keep O-ring seals & piston surface lubricated. By high mileages - this seapage may become a flowing leak - caused by this O-ring seal worn out.
But that's definately NOT the case here - on your description.
The hose rubber has simply detoriated by y's of harsh road environment - and then the rubber cracks & splits - a fully normal service incident.
Replacement rubber hose assemblies are available at low cost - easy to replace.
It has nothing to do with the other problems discussed before - just by coincidence - this small misshap shows up now. Certainly it's the reason for any small greasy green drips seen before.
These small leak-off hoses from the front struts ONLY carries the fully normal leak off from the struts to the reservoir.
The leak off is in fact seepage from the hydraulic cylinder - to keep O-ring seals & piston surface lubricated. By high mileages - this seapage may become a flowing leak - caused by this O-ring seal worn out.
But that's definately NOT the case here - on your description.
The hose rubber has simply detoriated by y's of harsh road environment - and then the rubber cracks & splits - a fully normal service incident.
Replacement rubber hose assemblies are available at low cost - easy to replace.
It has nothing to do with the other problems discussed before - just by coincidence - this small misshap shows up now. Certainly it's the reason for any small greasy green drips seen before.
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
No real harm should come of it after all thats what the valve is there to prevent, but any weak areas in the system like rusted pitted pipes, worn or weak seals and a dodgy drive belt may give up the ghost because of it, so might be wise to word her to back off when full lock is reached.
Its not a sound I like to hear either.
Dave
Its not a sound I like to hear either.
Dave
-
first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20
- Location:
- My Cars:
Hi all
Finally got time to get the car in to have the HP pump done (thought it would be easier than doing it myself - price not that much different - got Pleiades to do it).
The HP pump has ben done, fresh LHM put in (hydrorinse flushed out) and whilst there a new auxiliary belt put on.
And the result is ..... same issues when raising the suspension from lowest [:(!]. The steering is now a lot lighter and much better when travelling at speed and turning the wheel (felt quick stiff some times - relatively so for a Citroen). It does still give intermittent assistance when turning from lock to lock (although now less drastic).
As before, when the suspension is at the lowest and been left there for some seconds, when you try to raise the suspension you get the hydraulic warnings as before. It will eventually go out but not before you rev the engine.
Can others here with XM 2.5TD's confirm that they do not get these issues. I was told it could happen as the pressure is exhausted when at lowest setting and the pump is smaller on later anti-sink XM's as the anti-sink should keep the suspension up, therefore not necessitating a raise every time the car is started. Could the pump not be man enough and may be the wrong one? I don't doubt Pleiades ability but could the wrong pump be on the car (for a smaller car) in the first place and they recon'd the one there?? Is there distinguishing features for a 2.5 HP pump??
What else could it be? Regulator?
Andrew
Finally got time to get the car in to have the HP pump done (thought it would be easier than doing it myself - price not that much different - got Pleiades to do it).
The HP pump has ben done, fresh LHM put in (hydrorinse flushed out) and whilst there a new auxiliary belt put on.
And the result is ..... same issues when raising the suspension from lowest [:(!]. The steering is now a lot lighter and much better when travelling at speed and turning the wheel (felt quick stiff some times - relatively so for a Citroen). It does still give intermittent assistance when turning from lock to lock (although now less drastic).
As before, when the suspension is at the lowest and been left there for some seconds, when you try to raise the suspension you get the hydraulic warnings as before. It will eventually go out but not before you rev the engine.
Can others here with XM 2.5TD's confirm that they do not get these issues. I was told it could happen as the pressure is exhausted when at lowest setting and the pump is smaller on later anti-sink XM's as the anti-sink should keep the suspension up, therefore not necessitating a raise every time the car is started. Could the pump not be man enough and may be the wrong one? I don't doubt Pleiades ability but could the wrong pump be on the car (for a smaller car) in the first place and they recon'd the one there?? Is there distinguishing features for a 2.5 HP pump??
What else could it be? Regulator?
Andrew
Andrew,
You have my deepest sympathies.
Nothing is worse that having professionals look at something, pay ££££, then not resolve the problem.
I have a 2.5 which rises and falls OK. I get the warning on switching from bottom to top during Citaerobics, and the suspension probably takes around 60secs to go from bottom to top. I understand that this is normal.
My only counsel would be to return to Pleiades and discuss the problem with them. They have an excellent reputation.
The XM yahoo group is pretty active as well. Worth posting on these. XM-L@yahoogroups.com (I think)
All the very best.
rg
'97 2.5 estate
You have my deepest sympathies.
Nothing is worse that having professionals look at something, pay ££££, then not resolve the problem.
I have a 2.5 which rises and falls OK. I get the warning on switching from bottom to top during Citaerobics, and the suspension probably takes around 60secs to go from bottom to top. I understand that this is normal.
My only counsel would be to return to Pleiades and discuss the problem with them. They have an excellent reputation.
The XM yahoo group is pretty active as well. Worth posting on these. XM-L@yahoogroups.com (I think)
All the very best.
rg
'97 2.5 estate
-
first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20
- Location:
- My Cars:
Hi rg
Thanks for the advice and assistance. How does your 2.5 react? Do you get all the warnings as per mine "Hydraulic pressure" followed by "Warning Brake pressure loss" repeatedly until I rev the engine to restore pressure, I assume, or just once?? I was not trying to doubt Pleiades skills but was just trying to suggest that if the pump was wrong before they got ot it, they might inadvertently recon the wrong pump.
I will try the other forum.
Any ideas what the difference in pump is between the 2.5 and the others? Just the pulley wheel?
Thanks sgain
Andrew
Thanks for the advice and assistance. How does your 2.5 react? Do you get all the warnings as per mine "Hydraulic pressure" followed by "Warning Brake pressure loss" repeatedly until I rev the engine to restore pressure, I assume, or just once?? I was not trying to doubt Pleiades skills but was just trying to suggest that if the pump was wrong before they got ot it, they might inadvertently recon the wrong pump.
I will try the other forum.
Any ideas what the difference in pump is between the 2.5 and the others? Just the pulley wheel?
Thanks sgain
Andrew