STOP light on dash with low lhm fluid level

[Mandrake]

Thanks, you have answered my questions, even the ones I hadn't asked yet. I was dreading having to lower the car as it would have meant starting the engine so more LHM everywhere. I assume the regulator is one way so holds the pressure in the system so the inlet is now depressurised anyway, it must be as fluid has stopped spraying out..........

There is a one way valve between the pressure output of the regulator and the rest of the hydraulic system preventing back feeding into the pressure regulator - to be honest I don't know where it is in a Xantia, probably in one of the pressure distribution blocks on the firewall bulkhead, perhaps someone else knows.

Also as soon as you depressurise the pressure regulator with the bleed screw the anti-sink valves will act to isolate the suspension making back feeding from the suspension impossible even if there weren't a one way valve, so you're quite safe to remove the accumulator sphere and the leaking pipe once you've opened the bleed screw a half turn, whether or not the suspension is still up.

I can buy a pipe here but often you have a wait while they order one, can be days or weeks, but I can live without the car for a week or so. I will make sure I get the right pipe seals as well, normally all in a packet but not guaranteed to be.

I will remove the existing pipe to check which seals it has. I can buy one here for 32 euros inc postage so if a local parts place can match this I will buy there as I will be able to see it before paying.

Sorry I hadn't noticed you were in France, I assumed you were in the UK.

Have a look a bit further down the third V6 thread I posted a link to and you'll see a photo from CitroJim showing the difference between the two types of seals - one has the rubber seals, one has the metal disc, and the end of the pipes are slightly different. That should help you to identify which one you have when you remove the pipe.

I will also change the sphere, as fluid everywhere daft not to. Still trying to find the bills I got with the car as spheres were changed but I can't remember how many, 4 or 5 ?

If the car is 1994 onwards (has anti-sink) it will have either 8 spheres if its Hydractive 2 or 6 spheres if its not Hydractive 2.

So more questions - I assume I will need to depressurise before changing the front sphere ? so fit new pipework, lower the car, depressurise and change sphere.

To change the accumulator sphere you only need to open the bleed screw a half turn, no need to depressurise the entire suspension - same for replacing the pipe between the pump and the regulator.

Also as I have lost a lot of fluid I may as well do a fluid change SInce I am half way thwere already ? Should be ok to run the engine on low LHM just to lower the car ? I assume these hydraulis are like my mini digger, low fluid does no damage as such just that stuff stops working until topped up.

It's not advisable to run the engine with no oil in the hydraulic system and the pump unprimed. Xantia hydraulic pumps don't use ball bearings instead using bronze bushes that are lubricated directly by the oil going through the pump, if you run it completely dry the pump is running without lubrication of the bearings. It might be ok for a couple of minutes but any length of time running dry is likely to damage the bearings or at least wear them.

If there was not enough oil and the pump was running dry you would not be able to lower the suspension anyway, the pressure regulator has to be running at normal pressure or the anti-sink valves will close locking the suspension at the height its already at.

As I said earlier though, no need to lower the suspension to replace that pipe or the accumulator sphere. Any other spheres on the car, yes.

Just out of interest, for a few months now I noticed the car would sink 2cm or so at the front when parked for 10+ minutes, never went any lower if left for days but did drop quickly at first. Once started rose back to normal straight away. Is this a symptom of the above, dodgy sphere, slight fluid leak ?

Nope, that's perfectly normal behaviour.

For the first 5-30 minutes or so after turning the engine off the suspension will sink slightly due to normal leakage in the height correctors. After that the anti-sink valves will close and that source of leakage is isolated. The car will then stay at that slightly lower hight anywhere between hours and days, typically many days. Nothing to worry about.

[charentejohn]

Just what I needed to know Simon, all positve stuff apart from the puddle on the floor all easily fixed. Could have been a lot worse. Looking like about £130ish for spheres, pipe and LHM so not bad.

I will buy the pipe and new front and rear spheres, may as well do both while I am at it. I saw the photo of the two end fitings and it will prove useful if I have to send a photo identifying the pipe end if I buy online. I pictured a normal flared end like on a brake line, I can see why the pipe has to be bought ready made as not possible to do these ends.
May be a seal has gone and the pipe is ok, I will investigate tomorrow when I remove it.
The car is a 2001 SX with 'normal' hydropneumatic so just the 6 spheres.

Great to have a resorce like this forum when the poo hits he ventilation device as reading the manual is not as quick or as certain as talking to people who have actually worked on such problems. From panic stations to a workable solution in under 24 hrs

[charentejohn]

Took the pipe off and it looks ok, that said the rubber seal didn't. Looks like the long seal on the regulator and a flat end on the pump. That said I could only find the damaged rubber seal in the regulator end and nothing in the pump end.
Looking into the fittings both seem to have a tapered slope inside the pump/regulator. I fished around and peered into both ends but on the pump end I couldn't see anything, if I read it right there should have been a tapering cone washer or rubber O ring ?

When I went to remove the regulator pipe it was loose, hence the shot seal releasing fluid. NOTE - I checked the regulator pipe and think it should have had a metal seal ?? the ridge is more of a flat than a bulge and the distance to the end of the pipe from there is less than 1cm, so looks more like the newer type (which it should be) in Simon's link to pipe type thread.

Found the bills I got with the car and guess what, the £$%*£@ mechanic (he appears in ther posts on this car) who maintained it changed the regulator in Jan 2011. Being a waste of space he oviously used the wrong seal, so it did well to last as long as it did. Just as advised if a rubber seal it used it must be shortened or it will leak, so this test seems to prove that.

I will be off to Citroen tomorrow to see if I can buy new seals, assuning they sell them individually. If french garage is going to order them i will probably just ask Lee Runmey at Scarborough to post me some, it would be faster.
Citroen service don't show any seal details in their exploded drawings.

I took some photos, first time posting photos so hope this works

Regulator end fitting

Pump end pipe fitting

Pump entry showing taper but no seal ?

Not a mutant spider but the destroyed rubber seal.

[Mandrake]

Took the pipe off and it looks ok, that said the rubber seal didn't. Looks like the long seal on the regulator and a flat end on the pump. That said I could only find the damaged rubber seal in the regulator end and nothing in the pump end.
Looking into the fittings both seem to have a tapered slope inside the pump/regulator. I fished around and peered into both ends but on the pump end I couldn't see anything, if I read it right there should have been a tapering cone washer or rubber O ring ?

Don't panic, the pump end is the same on all Xantia's - its a metal to metal spherical flare with no additional seals. It's only the regulator end of the pipe that varies between older and newer models.

When I went to remove the regulator pipe it was loose, hence the shot seal releasing fluid. NOTE - I checked the regulator pipe and think it should have had a metal seal ?? the ridge is more of a flat than a bulge and the distance to the end of the pipe from there is less than 1cm, so looks more like the newer type (which it should be) in Simon's link to pipe type thread.

Found the bills I got with the car and guess what, the £$%*£@ mechanic (he appears in ther posts on this car) who maintained it changed the regulator in Jan 2011. Being a waste of space he oviously used the wrong seal, so it did well to last as long as it did. Just as advised if a rubber seal it used it must be shortened or it will leak, so this test seems to prove that.

Hard to tell for sure from your pictures which pipe end you have unless you could get a photo at right angles to the end of the pipe to directly compare with Jim's picture, but it does sound a bit like its the type expecting the metal disc and they have put a standard rubber seal on instead.

As mentioned in the V6 thread that would prevent the pipe end bedding down metal to metal, so there will be a gap between the pipe end and the taper in the hole meaning that the entire pressure is being supported only by the rubber of the seal which will eventually lead it to blow through and fail as your last picture shows quite spectacularly.

With the rubber seal variety of fitting the seal is only to prevent weepage, most of the sealing is the pipe end fitting about 1-2mm snuggly into a slightly tapered hole, with the end of the flare nut pushing up on the bump on the pipe to apply some pressure. At the same time the flare nut end is pressing on one end of the rubber seal, with the other end of the seal pushing against the larger diameter hole, which causes it to compress and swell up, sealing off the cavity against leakage.

It looks like your choices are either to get the metal disc seal, or get some rubber seals and try cutting them to the right length so the pipe sticks about 1mm or so beyond the seal when the seal is up against the bump in the pipe. They should be pennies so I'd get a few spare ones as well, in case the length takes a wee bit of experimenting.

I wonder why the regulator was replaced ? They're an extremely sturdy reliable unit, I've never had any first hand experience of one failing and its not something that you see mentioned on the forum much either.

I will be off to Citroen tomorrow to see if I can buy new seals, assuning they sell them individually. If french garage is going to order them i will
probably just ask Lee Runmey at Scarborough to post me some, it would be faster.

Get a few of them, they should be dead cheap - the postage will be more than the seals so theres no point just getting one.

[messerschmitt owner]

Just reading this post. the tick rate what doe's this indicate, this is quite quick on my HDI 110 Exculusive.

the accumulator sphere collects pressure - the more pressure it retains, the less it clicks - the pressure is there to prevent the brakes from instantly failing in the advent of hydraulic failure. The more clicks, the less pressure is accumulated, the shorter the period from working to total failure. A decent accumulator sphere also makes for a smoother ride too as the pressure is more constant.

[charentejohn]

Good point Simon, I will buy both types 2x metal (in case I serew up fitting) and 3x rubber so I can play about a bit.
Having felt the ridge it is definitely more of a 'disc' rather than a bulge, it has a definite flat face top and bottom, 99% sure it should be a metal collar.

I did think it was strange as when looking for a regulator, not easily found outside Citroen, I did think they seemed reliable.
I will look closely tomorrow to see if it looks new, ish. I have an invoice for £300 (330 Euros) for the actual unit plus fitting and LHM costs.

The guy I bought it off had it a while and had a registered (non Citroen) garage do repairs, but I think the garage is useless or just didn't know Citroens. This is the same garage that put 3L of oil in the gearbox, which only holds 2L......
So do I believe anything they have done ? Could have been a leak at the front and they had a rubber seal, put that in and charged for a regulator. Or it could have been ok and they fitted one anyway ? Who knows.
Luckily I have a good small local Citroen approved garage near me, the owner is a member of the vintage Citroen club here so should know his stuff. The rest I will do myself if I can, best the devil you know.......

Gearbox oil next, supposedly done in March 2011 so I will be interested to see how the oil looks, or if there is any.

[KennyW]

John,

There are No rubber seals on your system, I have a spare pipe in the garage but it was for the 1.9 TD and the difference between the 1.9TD and 2.0HDi 90 is the length. It is a straight flare seal metal to metal but the seals are handy to have anyway

Kenny

[Old-Guy]

Gearbox oil next, supposedly done in March 2011 so I will be interested to see how the oil looks, or if there is any.

It's almost impossible to drain the gearbox in situ so there will be some oil in it. The quality of the gear-change is extremely sensitive to the oil being the right grade and brand. If you search the forum you'll see what I mean.

[charentejohn]

I had read about the oil and have my can of Total on the shelf ready to go.

Kenny, intersting that you should say that. I just rang the Uk garage I usually ask questions of and they said they only ever had rubber seals and had never seen metal ones ??? Then again they didn't seem to know there were 2 types of pipe.

I have seen the photos of the two so figured they must exist, but someone commented earlier that the rubber was a secondary 'weep' stopping seal rather than an olive type as in plumbing. So it may well fit together without the seal as the pipe end is also supposed to taper slightly into the hole on the regulator.

I tried my Citroen dealer here in France but forgot to bring my Vin number and they couldn't work without it, not like the old days. I may try going back and just see what he tries to sell me.

Off the wall thought but what about PTFE tape in place of the seal ? I have some of this and have used it on my digger to seal threads. I have some 'extra thick' tape which would certainly make a well compressed bung in the opening.
I would assume the metal gland would be meant to act like an olive though and compress onto the pipe to seal it so a different system really.

[KennyW]

John,

As an emergency when I had similar leak I used a small rubber 0 ring which stopped the leak until I changed the pipe.

The only problem which can occur is over tightening the pipe onto the pump which will results in a leak

Kenny

[charentejohn]

I didn't think buying a seal could be so complex.
I tried my local Citroen garage who looked at Service Citroen page and said none needed, the online French dealer I contacted said no problem and I needed 2, one for each end.
I called Hartwell in the UK, very good dept, who knew immediately what I was talking about without consulting the computer. Initally thought none needed then checked and said none needed on the pump end but should be one on the regulator end, but they have 3 sizes and best to try to be sure, only I can't get there.
French main dealer (50 mile round trip to visit them) knew what I wanted but couldn't possibly find one without a Vin number.
So next is to have a french friend call them to see if they have one in stock, if so I will collect it otherwise I may buy online and take a chance they are the correct diameter.

So I need the correct one for the regulator end only, hopefully I will find one soon.

Alternatively the interior of the two openings in the pump and regulator look the same inside, so if the pump needs no seal perhaps the regulator can (if necessary) do without one too. It was suggested I could try fitting the regulator end with no seal and see if it clamped up, worth a thought......

[Chris570]

you 100% need a seal at the regulator end and not at the pump end. It will NOT seal at the reg end without one. I can't seem to find the part number but someone will know it. failing that Martin at pleadies will be able to supply you with some.

[charentejohn]

Thanks I will make sure I fit one.
Tried Pleiades search and found anything but a web site for them ? did find pleiades.uk.com but after looking at the site (nothing to do with car parts) my keyboard started acting up, space key not working. Could be a coincidence ?

I did find a source here but they need to post it to me so may take a while, I will try locally first. Amazing there are so many conflicting opinions, but I believe fitting one is correct. Just a little wierd that the fitting on the pump and regulator are the same shape, pump has flat pipe end and no seal, regulator has flat 1cm from the end and needs a seal. Why ? Would make sense to make them both the same either way.

If the seal is meant to crush down then it would possibly need the pipe to support it, whereas the pump end has no pipe to support it. Main problem is Citroen service pages show no seals at all, not 100% accurate and also confuses their own garages.

[myglaren]

Pleiades
Unit 12A Brookside Industrial Estate
Sawtry
PE28 5SB

Tel 0-1-4-8-7 8-3-1-2-3-9

They do not have a website any more.

[charentejohn]

Finally able to repond as I have a new keyboard (think problem was mechanical rather than from dodgy web site ?). No web site these days is unusual, even if it just says phone this number.

I will keep the Pleiades number but will still try locally for a metal seal. I went to my local (Citroen owners member) garage today and did get a rubber seal, no charge, nice guy. As said I did need to shorten it but the guy said these are normal now and it would be fine. It is much chunkier than the damaged 'seal' if that is what it was, looks like this.


So I did that but am not convinced it is fully ok. I tested the hole it is meant to fit on the regulator and the ridge inside is less than the one on the pipe, it looks sloping but I think it is flat. So I would assume the rubber will miss the edge and compress into the reduced opening a bit. Hard to explain what I mean but reckon it is not ideal and will shred a bit in the process, so may try and find a metal one, or make one.

With the shortened rubber seal how tight is tight ? I think the clamp bolt would just compress the pipe without a seal so I could theoretically tighten it all the way compressing the rubber into the small space and introducing bits of it into the LHM ?
Before that happens will I reach a point where I can't compress any more ?
Hopefully I can find a 'real' one tomorrow.