STOP light on dash with low lhm fluid level

[Citroenmad]

If the tick rate is high/frequent it means your accumulator sphere is low on gas and the pump is having to work overtime.

[myglaren]

Just reading this post. the tick rate what doe's this indicate, this is quite quick on my HDI 110 Exculusive.

That the accumulator sphere is on it's last legs.
As this stores a pressure reserve to operat the brakes it is not wise to leave it too long, also damage will occur to the regulator if left too long.
A tick rate of less than thirty seconds is bad.

[Citroenmad]

A half decent way to test your accumulator sphere is to have the car running, then stop the engine and put the height lever into high from normal. There should be enough pressure to raise the car. You should also notice that when filling the car with fuel it sinks down and then lifts back up. If it doesn't the accumulator sphere is toast!

[Mandrake]

It's not always a sign of a flat accumulator sphere, it can also be a sign of high internal leakage in the hydraulic system. On a hydractive model it can be caused by an (internally) leaky electrovalve. On my previous Xantia I had a brand new accumulator sphere but the tick time was as bad as 8 seconds, and never any better than 20 seconds until I replaced the leaky electrovalve, then it went up to about 3 minutes.

[Xaccers]

Just reading this post. the tick rate what doe's this indicate, this is quite quick on my HDI 110 Exculusive.

Flat accumulator sphere, meaning no brakes when the engine isn't running (or very few pumps of the brakes).
There's an accumulator at the rear of the car too, known as the anti-sink sphere, if the main one needs changing then chances are the rear one does too.

[charentejohn]

Well the tick rate is a bit academic at the moment.................
Went out today, 1 week after original problem, and it did it again. I have been out a couple of times and covered about 40 miles at this point.

When I got into the car mid week I noticed as I stepped in the front dipped, like bad shock absorbers. I did think it may be time to go on a diet. Once started all was ok and Stop went out in 15 seconds.

Set out today and same thing but Stop took a long time to go out. About 3 miles from home a thump from under the car, like driving over a tree branch. After another 5 miles, when accelerating on a slip road, the Stop came on again but then kept coming on and off.

Stopped at my destination and checked level on high setting, no fluid, so I added 1/2L, set to normal height and went to lunch. Came back and small puddle near the front of the car. Drove home as Stop light was not on, but drove carefully. Stopped on the way home and left another puddle of LHM. When I arrived home I noticed the puddle on the garage floor I had missed on the way out.

So this may give a clue, I will try the Lexia (for the first time) and remove the cover under the engine to see what's happening. I have pulled a muscle in my side (not with laughing though) and doc says no heavy lifting but I should be ok to grovel under the car.

[addo]

Can you see if the dribble/leak rate changes as someone turns the steering to full left or right, and holds it there (not super-hard, but firmly)?

[charentejohn]

No need to grovel under the car, I took the top covers off to find oil 'spatters' all over the fromt of the engine.
The unit attached to the front sphere covered in fluid, so it must have gone bang. According to the manual this is the front suspension regulator, elementary my dear Watson, seeing as the front was bouncy as described above.

What is the splution to this if this part is at fault ? Replacement seems a good idea, how tricky is this as at least I can see it so access not too bad. I have a good local garage who can do it too so I may let them once I am sure of the solution.

Edited to add - I cleaned the unit and started the engine as there didn't seem to be many points it could leak.
What I found was a spray of LHM from the innermost pipe on top of the unit, which has coated the front of the engine, air filter box water pipes etc....... I hope LHM is not corrosive to these items.

Spray was large and I was slow to turn off and it can't be driven like that even to a local garage, so what now ?
Hopefully just a joint gone but why ? pipes are well clamped and solid, is there a seal inside the pipe that could have gone, I assumed it would be a flared joint.
Would loosening and re-tightening help ? or is a fracture of the regulator body possible, the spray was vertical so hopefully just a problem with the pipe

[Mandrake]

Oh dear, thats not good news

It's not 100% clear from what you describe whether you're talking about the Hydractive regulator unit - which is mounted to the front crossmember at the bottom of the radiator, or whether you're talking about the pressure regulator - which is mounted nearby but on the front of the gearbox. Very different diagnosis depending on which one it is. I've attached a picture of the front hydractive regulator below: (click the image to see the whole thing)

Is this the unit that is leaking ?

Its highly unlikely the control block itself is faulty - I've never heard of one failing, so I wouldn't worry about having to replace it. Likewise although the electrovalve can become internally leaky, (leaking through the overflow line back to the tank) its unlikely to be leaking externally either.

Can you indicate where in the picture the leak is ?

The two large diameter steel pipes - one facing directly up and one directly down go to the front suspension strut tops via the front wings. They are flared joints with no o-rings. They can sometimes weep (in fact its not uncommon to see a slight weep) but would rarely leak any volume. If leaking you could try loosening them off slightly (make sure the suspension is fully lowered first to depressurise the suspension) then nip them up again - don't over-tighten them as that will just stretch the joint and cause it to leak.

A fracture of the pipe itself below the nut perhaps from past over tightening is a possibility. Or it may have been removed and refitted under strain at a slight angle - with the flared seal-less joints its important for the joint to be clean (free of grit) and aligned correctly (squarely aligned into the hole) so theres no stress on it when it sits in place with the nut tightened up.

The threaded holes that these two pipes go into are actually in a couple of "plugs" - the large hex head outside of them is the top of the plug which screws into the hydractive control block, and there is a large o-ring inside part way down this plug.

Underneath (out of view in the picture) are two small 3.5mm pipes with standard Citroen sleeve type seals - one goes to the height corrector and the other one goes to the high pressure from the main pressure regulator to feed the electrovalve.

On the top of the electrovalve is a rubber low pressure return hose (shown with hose clamp in my picture) which goes back to the main reservoir. This can leak but it would normally cause only a dribble unless the electrovalve was also leaking internally.

Finally, at the base of the electrovalve where it screws into the main block, there is a green o-ring (not visible unless the electrovalve is unscrewed) and this could potentially leak.

If you can confirm whether the pictured regulator is the source of the leak and exactly where its coming out I'm sure we can offer some ideas on what to do about it...

If you're unscrewing any of the fittings on the regulator make sure you fully lower the suspension to depressurise it, (height lever set on low with engine running for 2-3 minutes) then open the bleed screw on the pressure regulator half a turn to depressurise the remainder of the hydraulic system - unless you want an LHM shower that is!

[Old-Guy]

The bleed valve screw is the only 12mm hex head on (the front of) the pressure regulator. Do NOT undo more than 1/2 turn or the valve internals will be fired out by a high-pressure jet of LHM! When you do it up, only nip it up otherwise you'll damage the valve seat.

[charentejohn]

Thanks guys, especially for the warnings, always appreciated. I planned to try and loosen retighten tomorrow and then thought about putting the suspension on low, and then remembered the pressure relief screw but wasn't sure if I really needed to undo it.
As my garage floor is now an LHM swimming pool leaking fluid as a result of this is not a real worry. When I tested for a leak I started the car, went to the front and picked up a work lamp, saw the spray of fluid, went to turn it off but had the lamp in my hand and the cable was too short, so I put it down and eventually turned the engine off - my how I larfed......

The (long) link below shows a picture of my kind of regulator, it has metal input/output pipes. Not exactly like the one in your photo Mandrake (or as clean).
It is definitely the high pressure inlet pipe that is leaking, it has been in place a while. I have had the car for 10 months so no problem in that time. The pipes are well clamped and shouldn't flex but something has gone wrong.
Most likely is the over tightened flare splitting around the edge, my adding more fluid could have pushed it over the edge.

The leak is, looking down on the regulator from the front ot the car, from the rear of the 2 pipes on the top. This is I believe the high pressure one. The jet of LHM is vertical and hits the underside of the air filter housing (non intercooler so no ther pipework). The only ray of sunshine so far is that the regulator should be ok but I doubt a new pipe will be cheap.

I may try having 'er indoors' start the car while I hold a cloth over to see where the spray actually comes from but a lot of fluid comes out. So it may be smarter to lower the car, undo the offending end of the pipe and see if it is damaged.
I checked service citroen site and the part no is 5270-ph so I should be able to order one if need be. Found one here, price seems ok http://accessoires-citroen-lorient.com/ ... 86927.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... CCYQ9QEwBw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[addo]

Have I just died?

A French parts dealer who is willing to send pieces overseas, HT?

[Mandrake]

Ok, the picture you show is the main pressure regulator not the hydractive regulator - that is a completely different unit to the one I posted.

The pressure regulator is mounted on the gearbox and depending on the engine type it's mounted in a number of different orientations - on my V6 it's mounted back to front with the bleed screw facing backwards.

The job of the pressure regulator is to take the inlet from the high pressure pump, store that pressure in the accumulator sphere and regulate the output pressure to 2400-2700 psi. The 12mm bolt head on the front of it is the bleed screw previously mentioned.

If its the inlet pipe leaking that's the one that comes from the hydraulic pump on the left hand side of the engine. (looking into the engine bay)

Good news is the regulator itself will be fine, bad news is it will most likely be a rusted pipe. Some models used a pipe with a Citroen style rubber sleeve seal (earier models I think) while other models used a flared joint with no seal. Until you unscrew it you won't know which type you have.

If you're replacing that inlet pipe you don't need to depressurise the entire suspension (you may not be able to anyway) all you need to do is slacken the bleed screw half a turn on the regulator itself and don't run the engine while the pipe is out.

I'm not too familiar with the pipes to the regulator and where to get them, but I've seen it discussed many times on the forum, have a quick search on the forum, and hopefully someone else will chime in with some advice on the best place to get a new pipe.

[Mandrake]

Found these links for you:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... pe#p329106" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... pe#p329107" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also this one - discussing the two types of seals, apparently the later flared type has a conical spacer in the bottom of the hole:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 6&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's also worth mentioning that if the accumulator sphere (the one screwed onto the end of the pressure regulator) is dead flat it can cause damage to the pipe and cause it to leak due to the very high pressure spikes coming from the pump without the sphere to smooth them out. So its possible that that sphere dying (if it has) is the reason why the pipe has failed now after all these months.

I would replace that sphere as a matter of course now if it's condition and age is unknown - its around £20 from aepdirect or GSF. If it is faulty you could fit a new pipe and have it damaged again in a very short time if you don't - not worth the risk and hassle when replacing the sphere is so easy and cheap.

[charentejohn]

Thanks, you have answered my questions, even the ones I hadn't asked yet. I was dreading having to lower the car as it would have meant starting the engine so more LHM everywhere. I assume the regulator is one way so holds the pressure in the system so the inlet is now depressurised anyway, it must be as fluid has stopped spraying out..........

I can buy a pipe here but often you have a wait while they order one, can be days or weeks, but I can live without the car for a week or so. I will make sure I get the right pipe seals as well, normally all in a packet but not guaranteed to be.

I will remove the existing pipe to check which seals it has. I can buy one here for 32 euros inc postage so if a local parts place can match this I will buy there as I will be able to see it before paying.

I will also change the sphere, as fluid everywhere daft not to. Still trying to find the bills I got with the car as spheres were changed but I can't remember how many, 4 or 5 ?

So more questions - I assume I will need to depressurise before changing the front sphere ? so fit new pipework, lower the car, depressurise and change sphere.
Also as I have lost a lot of fluid I may as well do a fluid change SInce I am half way thwere already ? Should be ok to run the engine on low LHM just to lower the car ? I assume these hydraulis are like my mini digger, low fluid does no damage as such just that stuff stops working until topped up.

Just out of interest, for a few months now I noticed the car would sink 2cm or so at the front when parked for 10+ minutes, never went any lower if left for days but did drop quickly at first. Once started rose back to normal straight away. Is this a symptom of the above, dodgy sphere, slight fluid leak ?