Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

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stew7019
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Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by stew7019 »

Hi i am new to the forum, hope you can help with this problem.
The Saxo once she starts revs well while stationary but as soon as i attempt to drive forward it stalls.
By riding the clutch ,reving the engine and after a few times around the crescent up into 2nd the problem seemed to of cleared.
After parking up for a while the problem is still there , hard to start and still kangerooing.
My thoughts are is the fuel draining back at some point back to the tank.
I bled the fuel filter,the banjo at the return pipe on the pump( bit of air there )lastly the injector pipes.After a few cranks she started so left it running for a couple of minutes then a bit of a splutter and the engine died.
I think i am on the right track air in the system .
Tomorrow i will check the two banjo's on the fuel pump, do these incorporate a non return valve. Also i am thinking of putting a non return valve into the fuel line but where is it best to position it ie. supply or return.
Can't complain about the car first time she has let me down.
Hoping someone has had a similar problem with a successful ending.
Thanks for looking.
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by Dommo »

The priming pump (grenade) is a one way valve, I've had one fail which meant fuel leaked back to the tank (very frustrating!). I'd start by replacing leak off pipes though, they're the rubber pipes between each injector. If you do need a new 'grenade' you can get them fairly cheaply from screwfix:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/diesel-fuel-p ... tool/77865

They're a bit industrial looking but do the job.
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by stew7019 »

Dommo thanks for the reply.
I will source some tubing for the pipes tomorrow.
On the grenade/ primer this was a new one from Citroen only been on seven months always possible it is a faulty unit.
When it is pumped up it does harden but after a few moments it goes back to being soft, so it could be a possibilty.
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by spider »

I sort of have almost the same car. The piece of fuel pipe that enters the pump, it usually is clear. Watch for air bubbles here. You may see the odd one or if its really really bad (it probably won't run if its this bad) it looks milky in colour.

The seal on the fuel filter can go, and the housing itself can go porous so I hear although I've not seen that myself. The filter is quite likely though, change it if its not newish or in if doubt (whip battery and / or airbox out for access)

Also not unknown the thermovalve in the back of the fuel filter housing on the head. These are the "little white plastic" valves, also fitted to the XUD engines. The seals in these can go although I'm not sure if they are available or not. A temporary cure is some kind of sealant around the area though.

I'd start by looking at the air entering the pump itself, you can get one way valves from Ebay cheaply too, I fitted two of these to my 205TD and it cured the cold starting issue I had for a while. On that I fitted one just before the fuel filter inlet (so it could not run back down the pipework) and the other just about two inches before the pump inlet. It may of not needed both of them but it was easier to do it all in one go.
Andy.

91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by stew7019 »

Thanks Spider,
I ahave a new primer pump on it's way , changed the leak off pipes i will let you know the result after i have fitted it.
Thanks again
Stew
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by stew7019 »

Although the engine started after fitting the new primer pump the problem still persists.
Bled the fuel filter again until no air bubbles, bleed pipe showed clear fuel,but have noticed air bubbles moving along the small clear pipe just after the filter head.
After leaving the engine running air is moving along towards the f/pump after several minutes engine stalls out of fuel.
The small white valve already mentioned , will try some sealant on this.
Porous f/head i hope not.
Does anyone know if the Saxo 1.5D on a R plate 1998 has a scart type connection for a diagnostic tool, a neighbour has one although it will only give a fault code, but hey any port in a storm.
Thanks for looking.
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by myglaren »

I can't answer the diagnostic port question but have an idea that on a diesel that age there is not the full range of diagnostics available to more recent cars.
However, the port is best accessed by a dedicated Citroen machine - Lexia.
As it happens, there are a fair few of our membership that own these machines and offer to read and reset fault codes to the best of their individual abilities for other members.
They will not ask anywhere near the fee a dealership would expect and most will be happy with a bottle of their favourit elixir, a bargain you will agree?

There is a thread detailing this with a list of volunteers and a map with their locations.
If there is one near you, PM them to arrange a diagnostic session.
Thread here
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by spider »

I think at 98 the diag socket is for ABS / Airbag / transponder coding only. :( mechanical pump completely although that's no bad thing. :D

2001 (or 2002) onwards with the 1.5D's curious electronic pump (Jim will know what I mean) it can talk to the engine ECU (!) too. Although I do agree I think someone who's seen the air ingress before on something will be able to rectify this quite easily...
Andy.

91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by stew7019 »

Back from holiday to find the Saxo is back to square one.
Prior to holiday i had fitted new glow plugs ( couple were suspect ), bypassed the fuel filter by putting an in line filter in.
Started up no problem . a run up the road no problem . a wash and polish . away in the garage ready to sell when i came back.Happy as Larry.

Engine turns over , picks up for a couple of seconds then dies.
When it does go i have to use the clutch and accelerator to keep it moving.

Desperate now, tried the skills of a local garage but they were unable to source the problem. No solution no charge.
They checked current to the glow plugs ,ok.
They must of checked fuel as it was all over the battery & fuse box, their thoughts were that it must be the cold start switch within the BOSCH fuel pump and the only option is to let a diesel pump shop check it out.The cost of repair could out weigh the value of the car.
Haynes manual is a bit vague but the switch seems to be within a cover at the back of the pump secured by screws that shear off when removed.
Has anyone got a diagram of the pump/switch.
Can the switch be accessed with the pump left in situ.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks for looking.
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by spider »

The later ones are electronic pumps (like mine) although even with the sensors disconnected it will run, just fully advanced. It won't run without its injection double relay though.

How old is the car ? , do you have an ECU fixed atop the battery ?

The solenoid is under the cover, I did mine in situ last week and its not nice as there's no clearance to drift the pin out unless you want to take the radiator out. Not recommended unless you know what you are doing and are very very careful to ensure no swarf enters. Diamond cutting wheel required. I emptied about three cans of cleaner aerosol over it afterwards and hot water to rinse off any swarf.

I don't think its that though somehow but I could be wrong...

Do you have a clear piece of fuel pipe going into the pump ? , if so watch closely for air / milky fuel (bad if its milky) bubbles when cranking or when its running.

If you were local to me I'd have a look.
Andy.

91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by stew7019 »

Thanks for looking Spider.
The car is 1998 MK. 1.
No ECU on top of the battery
I agree the diagnosis of it being the switch could be wrong.
The way the engine dies reminds me of fuel starvation.
I never got around to checking out the banjo's for blockages, will do when i get back to Darlington, also it will do no harm blowing the lines out with a air line.
The clear tube seems to be free of air.

Stew
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by spider »

As I think more apart from the thermovalve in the fuel filter head (at the back, the white plastic thing inside it) the only other common points of air intake are the pipe between the filter and the pump (later models have a quick fix connector on the filter outlet) or around the primer bulb.

If when its cut out, immediately examine the fuel pipe where it enters the pump, you may see air bubbles travelling in it. Air ingress if severe will appear to be fuel starvation (the same thing in effect really)
Andy.

91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by stew7019 »

I have come to believe the problem doesn't lie with fuel, air is minimal to clear in the lines.
It looks as though the fuel solenoid on the BOSCH pump could be the culprit.
The red key emblem lights up and flashes continuously when the ignition is switched on.
The engine turns but doesn't fire.
There is a clicking noise in the vicinity of the fuel pump but can't pin point it.
As i said before the car was to be sold before this problem arose, it has been a good car for the 12 years i have owned it and is in a very good condition but now due to retirement it is surplus to requirements.
MOT & TAX is due so it is not economically viable to spend more money on it.
Much as i regret it i,t looks as though recycling is the only option.
Just hope the C2 1.4 HDI is half as good.

Thanks for all the input
Regards
Stew
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Re: Saxo 1.5D Air Entering System.

Post by spider »

The cover can come off but the pump needs (should) come off, having said that I did mine in situ however the care taken with ensuring that swarf does not enter anywhere (even say around the control arm shafts) and the time it takes as you cannot get in at the right angles with it fitted was greater than removing the pump and doing the job on the bench, especially with some Bosch units having the pin fitted as in my case this was the problem not the shear bolts as you cannot even if you cut the end open get a drift in due to the angle / radiator, I ended up slicing down its length :D

The clicking may well be the solenoid itself to be honest, as you don't have an ECU controlled one you won't have a tacky relay fitted in front of the battery.

The only other thing I can think of as you cannot get to the solenoid easily is the inertia cut off switch but they tend to work or not, not go intermittent but you never know I suppose. If you have one (they don't all have them) its probably around the nearside strut tower area, red or black button topped.

Shame you're not nearby or I'd of had a look at it, I wonder if there's a FCF member nearby you who would be able to take a look at it.
Andy.

91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
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